The nature of the fae

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

alighiera: Actually, on Erna I guess if enough people believe that 2+2=5, it might happen. So my results would be right as long as I have faith in them.
trobadora: Actually - that's a really frightening thought: the ability to alter such fundamentals, even on a limited scale. Can you even do proper maths on Erna?
alighiera: It would depend on how the laws of physics respond to the fae. But if DNA can be altered at a thought, then chemistry is already affected.
trobadora: How does the fae work? I'm not sure how the law of energy conservation would allow for what almost amounts to creatio ex nihilo.
alighiera: I'd assume the different kinds of fae have different origins. The earth-fae has to do with seismic and volcanic activity, so it may get generated there. Solar fae obviously comes from the sun, tidal fae may be moon-created. Dark fae is a bit trickier...

Any takes on this? Is the fae violating the laws of thermodynamics? And where does it really come from?

Comments

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Fae may alter the laws of Physics, but it never says that it does anything for the laws of mathematics. So I don't think 2+2 would be equal to 5 anyway.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

The maths bit is probably wishful thinking on my part. And I assume it would hold true for simple things. But I wonder what happens to things like probability calculations.

[trobadora]

Isn't there even something in the books about this? I don't quite recall, but a person's thoughts and feelings certainly do affect probability. If you believed or feared it enough, your coin tosses would turn out like in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, and our laws of probability simply wouldn't apply.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

That's... somewhat worrying.

So the laws of probability get twisted, depending on what people expect. What would that mean for calculations? Would they simply be wrong all the time because things are constantly in flux? Or maybe the result adjusts somehow...

[trobadora]

I suspect they would be wrong because the equations used don't account for all of the significant factors. Or there might be new formulae that do take this into account, but it would complicate the whole thing rather a lot. [/understatement of the century]

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

You'd need to find a way to have dynamic rather than static variables, and measure them while you do the calculations. If a method exists for that, it wasn't covered in my mathematics classes...

Erna needs computers, just for this.

[trobadora]

What did I say about Ernan pocket calculators? *g*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

*laughs* That poor demon.

Makes me think of the pocket-disorganizers on Discworld.

[trobadora]

What if enough people believed that 2+2=5?

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

No, you don't get it. Your reasonning is sound, but this isn't about Erna or the Fae, it's about the nature of Mathematics. Mathematics isn't real, it's all virtual. It's only a coherent, logical system of deductions and demonstrations based upon a purely imaginary axioms that can be used to descibe reality, but it's not reality. That's why I don't see why the Fae could influence it. 2 + 2 doesn't equal 5 per se. It's not a fact of the world. It's only a fact of the Eucledian system of Mathematics. It's not real already.

[trobadora]

Yes, but that's exactly what I mean - what if you could get a large enough number of people to believe in a set of axioms that aren't congruent to our experiential reality? What effect might that have on Erna? It's not about mathematics per se, but how people perceive it.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Ah, sorry, misunderstood you.

Wow, if they started to believe in something like that, and that it would influence reality... things could get very Escherian, indeed. Makes me think of some Amber Shadows from Zelazny's world, when you're close to the Chaos.

[trobadora]

Escherian, yes! Pretty frightening, actually. *shudders*

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

So essentially, if you get enough people deciding that 2+2=5, it does...but not because the fae makes it real. It's because people have decided to redefine the terms. Just like language. If people got together and decided that they wanted the word 'cup' to mean a chair, then it changes.

On Erna, I suppose it's possible that the fae would try to help by actually turning all the cups into chairs, but I think it's more likely that the meaning of the word would simply change. We're not reimagining anything; we're just changing what the symbol points to.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

The fae seems to be a form of energy, so I'm thinking that in working sorcery, you're actually using that energy to create...whatever you're creating. It's not creation from nothing, it's simply transmuting the energy source at hand.

Math doesn't seem to change. The point of math is that it's a language that's used to describe the world around you. In most cases, an equation is quite stable. However, when you bring it to the point of science or engineering, where math is applied to real-world objects, it seems to get into a sort of quantum physics thing, where perception affects results. Basically, you're adding an unquantified (unquantifiable?) variable into the mix. Hey, maybe chaos theory is the key to manipulating the fae! :) Or maybe psychology is. In this case, fae = the human mind?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

So sorcery is essentially a transformation of the fae from one state of aggregation to another? Just what those states are is another question entirely.

Theoretical mathematics would probably be safe, since it's a language, like you say. But applied mathematics... I assume it works on some level, or they wouldn't have a banking system. So at least basic accounting has to be possible. But once you get to more complicated calculations, I agree with you that it would all turn quantum really quickly.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

As to where the fae comes from, that's something I've wondered. What is it about this one planet that should make these weird forms of energy manifest, when they don't anywhere else? And energy is all I can imagine that it is, unless it's a third state of being that apparently only exists on Erna (matter and energy being two forms of the same...what, quintessence? I have to reference alchemy to find a word, heh).

So anyway, I've been wondering if it's just an unusual manifestation of various forms of energy. Earth fae sounds as though it's the potential and kinetic energy created by tectonic movement, while tidal fae are obviously the gravitational forces bound between various (mostly planetary) bodies. Solar fae is solar energy, I imagine (the Ernan sun's particular bands of the electromagnetic spectrum).

Huh. But if that's the case, then the question is, what would it be about Erna that makes these forms of energy receptive to sentient thought patterns? I wonder if it's the presence of the Iezu... That might make sense, if you said that the Iezu Mother's species has some sort of psychic/energy interface, but it'd have to be powerful enough to affect all of the energy patterns on the planet (it doesn't necessarily have to be the whole solar system, since things like solar energy might only be affected when they hit Erna's magnetic field, or...something).

Anyway, that's the closest thing to a plausible answer I can offer.

[kusan-38.livejournal.com]

What seems extremely odd to me is that the human subconscious manipulates the *earth* fae, the *tidal* fae, etc. If those are just waves of energy emanating from tectonic movement, gravitational forces, or the sun, as you say, why are humans able to distort them? We have solar energy here on earth, and we can't shape it into anything. If fae comprised energy waves, you'd think there would be a "human fae" that actually came from people, like brain waves. If the fae on Erna consists only of energy from external forces, it should be affecting humans, not humans affecting it. It seems that there must be another component besides pure energy.

[kusan-38.livejournal.com]

You know what, sorry. You DID explore the issue of why the energy on Erna was affected by human thought. And I think the presence of the Iezu is a very interesting solution. But I wonder--maybe humans just naturally evolved the ability to distort the fae, after being exposed to it long enough. The problem with that is...why did sacrifice influence the fae from the very beginning? That means that human feelings (required for a sacrifice to have any potency) were already distorting the fae. Your Iezu answer is better than anything I'm going to come up with. My only question is this: if the Iezu mother somehow created a global psychic/energy interface, that would mean that every life form with needs and desires might affect the fae... every animal that expected to kill its prey would win, and every prey expecting to escape would escape. I wonder how far down the evolutionary ladder the fae-shaping ability goes.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

That's a very interesting question. And it does seem to hold true, at least to some extent. At least, the Rakh had such fae-sensitivity, and the Xandu seem to, as well. Despite the amount of roaming Gerald and Damien do, you never really get to see much of the Ernan biosphere (except for a few artificially shaped parts, of course). You have to wonder what it must be like.

Like I said, the Iezu answer is the closest to plausible I can think of, but it doesn't really set off any bells for me. The only other answer I can think of is that Friedman just thought, "That'd make a great setting" and didn't bother with the whys of it...but that's no fun for us. ;)

[mariem-1.livejournal.com]

If fae comprised energy waves, you'd think there would be a "human fae" that actually came from people, like brain waves. If the fae on Erna consists only of energy from external forces, it should be affecting humans, not humans affecting it.

Well, there is fae that comes from living beings:

“We don’t know much. A wall of living fae, that first appeared shortly after the rakh fled into the Worldsend. No natural fae-current passes through it. No Working can pass from one side to the other. Tamed fae that’s Worked in the middle of it can go wild, and do anything. Ships that flounder into it discover that their instruments have suddenly gone haywire, that the very shoreline seems changed . . . but so much of our technology is fae-based, how can we be sure of what that means?”
“What’s it made of? Earth-fae? Tidal? Solar?”
Senzei shook his head. “None of those. Nothing we humans understand. Ciani thought there might be some sort of force inherent in the rakh themselves - we see similar things in other species - and that the Canopy is an extension of their communal existence. Their need for protection.”
“From man,” Damien said grimly.” (BSR, ch. 12).

[kusan-38.livejournal.com]

You're right! I completely forgot. But I wonder, why the rahk, and not humans?

[mariem-1.livejournal.com]

Most likely because humans didn't originate on Erna.

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

My personal pet theory is that the planet itself is alive. There are many religions on Earth that talk about the soil as though it were a living being. And we call it Mother Earth or Mother Nature sometimes. So why not an alien planet that has developed more sentience with the advent of humans? I don't think it's the Iezu's influence because the Mother says that after the Breeder died, she took patterns for her children from humans. And Adepts are the proof that humanity are being placed within Erna's native/local species.

Of course, I'm talking about something entirely different from what this post is about^^

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Hey, it's a fair point. Part of the question was "Where do you think the fae comes from?" I like your answer, actually. It's got some poetry to it. Plus it's slightly creepy, if you really think about it. :)