Working after CoS

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

There is something I'm wondering about, as far as the new nature of the fae at the end of Crown of Shadows goes.



After Gerald's sacrifice on Shaitan, the fae's pattern changed from sacrifice to self-sacrifice. I wonder just what that means in practical terms. We see only two Workings after that - Damien healing Gerald, and Gerald doing whatever he did to get himself into a new body. In the first case, Damien realizes he has to be willing to give his life. And Gerald apparently sacrificed his past identity.

What I am wondering about is just how strictly the self-sacrifice is enforced. I can't remember Damien ever sacrificing something during the trilogy, and he's Working a lot. Same for Gerald. Actually I can only think of three sacrifices we get to see: Casca's in the prologue to WTNF, Senzei's when he burns down the Fae Shoppe, and Gerald when he sacrifices Almea and his children. Workings seem to be possible without constant sacrifices.

So what about the new state of things? Just what is the probability that a Working will actually demand a self-sacrifice, and not just the willingness to do so?

And there's also the matter of what constitutes self-sacrifice. Willingness to die and sacrificing your past are two differnet pairs of shoes. I think it might even be possible to Work again with a little sacrifice of blood. Chop off a finger or a toe if things get really desperate and a big Working is necessary... or partial memories?

What are your takes on this?

Comments

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Well, in a way, I guess it doesn't matter. I mean, if you're not honestly willing and prepared to give up whatever the Fae might demand of you, then you won't be able to do the working. So whether or not it actually takes it (and Damien's case seems to indicate that it won't, necessarily) is pretty much a moot point. From that perspective, anyway.

From the "how do I write this scene?" perspective, which involves the question "How many body parts does the character walk away with after he does the working?" it seems, so far, that the only viable offering is your life. Maybe, if the fae (or God, or your subconscious, or whatever works out the equation) decides that what you're trying to do doesn't actually equal the value of that sacrifice, then the simple fact that you're willing to make it would be enough. In that light, it'd be writer's fiat whether actually making the sacrifice would be called for or not. Very convenient! :D

Or maybe Damien unknowingly lost several years off his life on Mount Shaitan.

Life, notably, seems to be different from existence. Gerald's life as Gerald Tarrant is gone, in return for continued presence on the planet. But I guess that following that logic, you can ask yourself the question, "What makes up a life?" in which case, you'd get into memories, knowledge, and so on.

Hmm. Have you ever read the book, Frostwing, by Richard A. Knaak? That would be a good place to start with the memories issue, I think.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

So it would be a matter of being willing to die for your working, but being able to count on walking away from it unless you're trying to do something truly big? I imagine that something like Gerald's workings to clean himself hardly warrants a life. Unless it's really a matter of life and death for him.

The idea of losing time is interesting. It would be a self-sacrifice, and it would mean that a working can be measured out in days, or months or longer. For a story, that would put an interesting twist on things if the character can be aware of it. What kind of working is worth a week of life?

But I guess that following that logic, you can ask yourself the question, "What makes up a life?" in which case, you'd get into memories, knowledge, and so on.

Been there for my fics, and I still don't have a sufficient answer to it. It's so difficult to figure out where to draw the line. And in Gerald's case, his own complicated definitions of life, soul, different personae and humanity don't help at all.

Have you ever read the book, Frostwing, by Richard A. Knaak?

I hadn't heard of it before, but the summaries sound intriguing. I'll have to see whether my bookstore can track it down for me.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

It's hard to work with just that Damien's example. Tarrant's is so vague that it's hard to see exactly what he did. I think it was life or death for him, though. I wonder, for example, whether he actually worked things out with Andrys, or simply let Andrys kill him and did the working without saying anything. Also (despite the fact that I prefer to think of it otherwise), I think that Friedman's concept there was that Tarrant completely reincarnated himself as a new individual. The core of himself didn't change, but everything that made him Gerald Tarrant as opposed to anyone else was transmuted into someone else.

But, of course, you can read that differently. If you say he did work it out with Andrys, that it was more a working for future convenience, that the fae (whether fickle or calculating) didn't demand the sacrifice that time...then maybe the sacrifice wasn't actually made. Maybe he was, indeed, still Tarrant and the working simply gave him the useful new form (or, perhaps, he hadn't actually tested it yet and that's why he was shy about his name).

In any case, I think if you're counting on walking away from it, then you're cheating. It might just be my reading of it, but it seems more like you don't go in with the expectation you'll be coming out--which is different from going in with the expectation you won't be coming out. In Damien's case, he wasn't exactly assuming he'd die, but he didn't seem to be planning for anything else, either, if you see what I mean.

Maybe it's best to think of it with this in mind: "Whatever you decide you need from me to perform this work, I'm content to surrender."

I don't think it's a religious context, exactly. Though it's possible that the Patriarch's sacrifice did leave a lingering trace of altruism on the fae, I don't think that Gerald's final sacrifice to reinvent himself had anything to do with altruism at all. :) That was all for him.

But you need to want it so badly that it doesn't matter to you if you walk away from it. And maybe it gives you varying levels of involvement. Like, maybe you can be willing to sacrifice "this much" but no more, and in that case you're taking a gamble as to whether the working will play out or not. If it needed more, and you're not willing to give it, then it fizzles, but if your ante was enough, then voila.

Or maybe it's an all-or-nothing deal, considering that Tarrant and the Patriarch both wagered everything.

...I'm not sure I'm helping.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I keep forgetting about the Patriarch's sacrifice, so I went back to that chapter and found something quite interesting. Seems like the actual change from sacrifice to self-sacrifice was only confirmed with his death. So anything between Mount Shaitan and this might have been in a state of flux, where the fae was shifting but not yet firmly settled in the new patterns. It would leave a lot of space for maneuvering, as far as Tarrant is concerned.

What puzzles me about Tarrant's sacrifice and the subsequent need to distance himself completely from his past is that it seems to work differently for Damien. He doesn't have to worry that his healing will come undone if he stops being willing to give his life to work, while apparently Tarrant is under far stricter limitations.

So as long as you're accepting the fact that this working might be your last, the chances would be good... it's a bit of a catch-22. Unless someone is truly desperate, it seems almost impossible to gather such a conviction that life is worth the sacrifice.

Gerald, altruism? *grin* I think once in nine centuries was enough for him. Though of course he might argue that his survival is important for humanity and that he'll dedicate his entire life to his new task.

The self-sacrifice condition has confused me for a while. The rules with normal sacrifice seemed to be so much clearer. But of course it's new for the book characters, so they haven't had time yet to figure it out. (Another reason why a few more pages wouldn't have hurt. :-)

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Gerald, altruism? *grin* I think once in nine centuries was enough for him. Though of course he might argue that his survival is important for humanity and that he'll dedicate his entire life to his new task.

*laugh* He would.

Well, Damien was willing to die to push the working through, and it took, and that was that. Gerald sacrificed the life he had lived up till that point, which means (I can only assume) that he couldn't go trying to take it back or he'd be undoing the sacrifice he'd already made. Very risky way of handling it.

Good point about the Patriarch's sacrifice. Which means that--argh!--even the examples we have might not be appropriate to the new order.

Sacrifice has always had power over the human mind. Not only does it represent the sheer manifest and pragmatic fact that if you're willing to sacrifice for your goals you're more likely to attain them, but it also carries very old and deep-seated resonances with just about every human spiritual belief.

The fae, meanwhile, simply responds to what it finds in the human mind. The first sacrifice by Casca, way back when, was specifically to get the fae to respond in a different way. Not only did he make the sacrifice, but he made the sacrifice to require sacrifice.

Tarrant made his self-sacrifice in order to gain the power to take out Calesta. So...although it would've imprinted on the fae (especially at such a place of power as Mount Shaitan--har, ironic that, I hadn't noticed it before), it wasn't meant to change the way the fae operated and so it presumably would only have had a partial effect.

The Patriarch, on the other hand, died to tame the fae and took the dreams of everyone he led along with him. It wasn't only his sacrifice--Damien's gesture with the bloody water, and everyone who followed after, was a symbol that they were accepting it as their own sacrifice too. That's why the Patriarch had the vision that he'd only succeed if Damien were there. So...Tarrant's self-sacrifice might have imprinted on the fae enough to make it register as "self-sacrifice counts for more than normal sacrifice" (because Tarrant thinks like that, even after all these years) and then the Patriarch and his followers sealed the deal.

So that would indeed get us a nebulous period between the two deaths. After things wrap up, though, it would not necessarily require death as the self-sacrifice. After all, the Patriarch's followers weren't dying, but they were accepting that they lost something with his death.

But then, where's the line between sacrifice and self-sacrifice? Tarrant, Senzei, and Casca all gave up things that mattered to them as individuals. Heck, you know what? Tarrant's probably always played by these rules. It was his religion, after all; his way of thinking. The sacrifice of his humanity to the Unnamed would probably be just as appropriate in the new order. The other two, though, gave up things that weren't, strictly speaking, theirs, even if they did care about them. Technically, it wasn't their decision to make. They didn't really have the right to make the choice (as the other colonists vividly reminded Casca in the prologue).

So...it'd have to be something that makes you die a little inside. Something that's your loss, specifically, and no one else's (or at least, if it's theirs too, they must be willing to go along with it). Life, memories, time with loved ones, dreams, hopes. Maybe it can be symbolized by something--the only remaining picture of your dead mother, for example. But that'd only work if it were something you sincerely cherished, something so important that it's a part of you.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Gerald sacrificed the life he had lived up till that point, which means (I can only assume) that he couldn't go trying to take it back or he'd be undoing the sacrifice he'd already made. Very risky way of handling it.

It does make sense, though. If he's still thinking about escaping Hell (and I imagine that his little trip there made him rather determined to do so), then he'd need to try for redemption. And what better way to start on that than dumping nine centuries full of sin?

Good point on Tarrant's sacrifice of his humanity. I's actually an interesting mirror, when you think about it - as the Hunter he had to maintain his evilness and not show any sign of humanity for fear of breaking his pact, and after dying/smooth-talking Andrys/whatever happened there, Tarrant had to do a 180 degree turn and distance himself from his evilness and be pure human. Self-sacrifice both times...

And unless I'm mistaken, the Church mandates that workings are only acceptable when they serve the greater good. At least the Matriarch's side; the Patriarch is far more radical in his stance. Signing over your life to the Church might constitute self-sacrifice as well, so you'd end up being able to work as long as it serves their purpose.

The line between sacrifice and self-sacrifice really is blurry. As is the differentiation of when you do a working for the greater good (which probably is still possible, to some extent, if you're willing to dedicate your life to it) and when it is for a selfish purpose.

I like the idea of personal loss. It's a rather thin line to walk, but it is a loophole, and a rather flexible one at that. If it were possible to parcel out memories or life, or hopes, then it would always be a matter of deciding whether you'd rather remember a happy day or do this working, or give up an aspiration in exchange for a working. Memories in particular would make for a rather scary method.

[kusan-38.livejournal.com]

I find it strange--the concept that you can merely *expect* to die, and have the fae obey your working. It seems that people would catch onto the idea of this sort of working, and realize that if they expected to win, they would lose, and if they expected to lose, they would win; no one can consciously choose what they expect. You can only succeed if you DON'T know the rules (very much like the concept of faith...if you know the nature of God, your belief is no longer faith). This is a system that, once you understand it, you cannot use. If you expected to die, you might say to yourself: "oh, since I expect to die, I will prevail." And then your expectation would ruin it.

It appears that the "expectation of self-sacrifice" as a suitable way of working is too problematic.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

It's enough to cause a lot of confusion, that's for sure. I wonder whether it could be done more than once. Until it works out once, there is doubt whether the attempt will be successful. But once you achieve it, the next try will be faulty because you'd be far too optimistic.

I'm starting to think it might be about the general mindset. The Patriarch was able to work in the end because he was doing it for utterly selfless purposes and because he was preparing to die. So perhaps the same would be true for anyone who is willing to give a life for a cause -any workings that help with that particular purpose might work out, while anything selfish would fail.

[mariem-1.livejournal.com]

And there's also the matter of what constitutes self-sacrifice. Willingness to die and sacrificing your past are two differnet pairs of shoes. I think it might even be possible to Work again with a little sacrifice of blood. Chop off a finger or a toe if things get really desperate and a big Working is necessary... or partial memories?

From http://www.merentha.org/inn.asp:
"The official answer is:
Man is eternally determined and ingenious, and I have no doubt that whatever form the fae takes, man will learn to control it somehow. The question is, who will do that controlling?

The Patriarch sacrificed his life and all he loved for the fae, not just blood. He also acted as the focus of a million faithful souls, so it was far more than one man's life involved. That is why it had the effect it did. He says earlier in the book that the one dream he lived for was to survive long enough to see the fae change; by dying at the threshold of that change, he sacrificed his dream as well. Big stuff. A lot more than a scar or a lost finger.

Theoretically any man willing to sacrifice his life can now control the fae. What has changed the world substantively is that, unlike with selfish sorcerors, such men are limited in number and generally not evil in intent. While the fae can still be controlled by some, it will likely not be used as casually or selfishly as it was before. Self-sacrifice, is by definition, not selfish.

The concept of people cutting themselves to pieces is intriguing, but believe me, it would take more than a finger. Give me someone who'd castrate himself for a Working and I'd give him a shot at it. :-)

I'd call it far more likely that someone will come up with the idea of bribing desperate peasants into sacrificng their lives for workings, in return for payments made to their families. Humans have done that for ages. - C.S. Friedman"

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

While the fae can still be controlled by some, it will likely not be used as casually or selfishly as it was before.

So a working for the greater good might be possible, but no more cleaning your clothes...

And I'm slightly worried about that peasant idea. It's the kind of thing Tarrant would think of - not that much of a difference between this and hunting young women... And it would even be honourable, as far as his definition goes.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

Workings seem to be possible without constant sacrifices.
I think Sacrifice was only one of the pattern of Working - the most powerful probably, but not the only one. There were other symbolical keys for such things.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

So a powerful Working would require a sacrifice, but small workings would be possible without...

Would that also mean that the self-sacrifice issue only applies to large Workings? Or that for one instance of willingness to sacrifice, you get several smaller workings?

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

that's difficult to say. I think Friedman meant that once Self-Sacrifice became the new Pattern, at least definitly after the Pätriarch did his own self-sacrific, it wasn't possible anymore to use the Fae in any other way. Then again, you can always chose to interpretate things differently.