Coldfire Reread: Black Sun Rising - Prologue

[trobadora]

And we're off! From today until just before Christmas, we'll be rereading the first part of the trilogy, Black Sun Rising. I'm really looking forward to the discussion. Now, without further ado:

Plot summary

Almea, Neocountess of Merentha, returns home one night, feeling strangely unsettled. She reflects on her husband's talents, his achievements, and his conflict with the Church he helped found that now condemns him for his sorcery. When she joins the Neocount in his underground workshop, she finds him changed, a distance between them that she can no longer bridge. He leads her into a hidden cave, where she finds their daughter Alix and their son Tory dead, slaughered by his hand. He explains to her that he needs more time to achieve his goals, and this is to that end. Then he binds her to a stone slab and kills her, slowly, as a sacrifice to the fae.

Quotes

• Don't call it magic, he would have said to her. It isn't that. The fae is as natural to this world as water and air were to our ancestors' planet, and not until we rid ourselves of our inherited preconceptions are we going to learn to understand it, and control it.


• ... the Church. They caused this, she thought. They caused it all, when they rejected him. Hypocritical bastards! Half their foundations were of his philosophy, the genius of his ordered mind giving their religious dreams substance, transforming a church of mere faith into something that might last - and command - the ages. Something that might tame the fae at last, and bring peace to a planet that had rarely known anything but chaos. But their dreams and his had diverged in substance, and recently they had come but one word short of damning him out­right.


• "I love you," he told her. "More than everything, save life itself. And I would have surrendered even that for you, in its proper time. But not now. Not when they've opened hell beneath me, and bound me to it by the very power I taught them how to use ... Too many prayers, Almea! Too many minds condemning my work. This planet is fickle, and responds to such things. I need time," he repeated, as though that explained everything. As though that justified killing their children.


• "You go to a far gentler afterlife than I will ever know," he said softly. "I apologize for the pain I must use to send you there. That's a necessary part of the process." The hand dropped back from her forehead, and the glittering blade was before her eyes.
  
  "The sacrifice is not of your body," he explained. His voice was cold in the darkness. "It is ... of my humanity."

Thoughts

• It's quite a thing, this prologue - dumping us into an alien world with very little explanation. The fae, the Church, Erna's lost Terran history, the power of sacrifice - much is hinted at, very little is explained. What did you think the first time you read this? Do we have anyone here who's reading for the first time?


• The prologue also introduces the trilogy's strange SF/fantasy mix - it looks and feels and tastes just like fantasy, what with demonlings and sorcery and sacrifice and everything, but at its core it's SF. One of the things I love about it. How about you?


• How appropriate is it that this trilogy begins with fear? Almea's descent into her husband's darkness is quite chilling.


• The division between the Church's vision and the Prophet's - how do you think it started? He seems to have attempting to demystify the fae at the same time as he used faith as a tool to focus it, whereas the Church seems to have believed the two incompatible, and consequently demonised private sorcery. I'm utterly fascinated by this topic. Thoughts?


• There is also the strand of trying to recreate Earth - witness the unhorses and uncats -, while at the same time acknowledging the fundamental differences between Earth and Erna. There's a sort of balance in there, as well as a typical arrogance, that fits very well with the Neocount. *g* I wonder how far that recreating would have gone, had the Church not turned away from him ...

All right, enough from me now - the floor is open, your thoughts on the prologue, please! Feel free to start your own comment threads, or join ongoing ones, or both - the more discussion, the better. :-)

And on Thursday, we'll be continuing with Chapter 1. (You can check up on the reading schedule here.)

Comments

[sinisterf.livejournal.com]

I haven't had time to read this chapter again, but I have some thoughts on the first point:

I think the prologue was a bit slow for me the first time I read it, but it was intriguing enough to keep me going. However, with the second or third read through I could really see how amazing it was. With the knowledge I had gained from the other books, many subtle points that were missed on the first reading came through.

[trobadora]

Yes, that's how I feel about a lot of the first third or so of BSR - I didn't appreciate it nearly enough the first time through and skimmed quite a bit to get to the "good" part (you know which one that is :D) - but going back for a second read, I was just amazed at everything that was in there that I didn't even notice before.

I'm not sure how well the prologue works as a hook to get you into the story, but it's amazing what's all in there.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

First time I read the prologue, it hooked me. It's not the only book that has a murder in chapter 1, but it's one of the very rare ones where the murderer isn't obviously a big bad villain. I have to say, though, that it took me until well into WTNF until I connected the dots about just who is turning into a merry little murderer here. (I know, I know...)

I've always felt that the condemnation of the Prophet by the Church worked on two layers. Officially, he risked Church goals by allowing private sorcery, while that kind of thing should have been in service of the Church. But I can't help suspecting that in the background, he was simply growing too powerful. Like it's listed here in the prologue - he seems to have run the entire show, and that when he was somewhere in his mid-twenties. I am quite sure that a lot of people took a good look at him, considered what else he might get up to in the remaining sixty years of his life, and decided that no, they don't want him in charge of the Church.

[trobadora]

I wish I knew what I thought when I first read the prologue! But you're right, it does a very good job at making its cold-blooded murderer sympathetic through Almea's thoughts. And that despite of what he does to her and their children, so that's quite an achievement!

And good point about it being a power struggle. It's easy to forget just how young he was, and also that he was an adept in a time when adepts were much rarer (as he says somewhere in WTNF, I don't remember where exactly) and therefore had power not easily equalled by anyone, even another sorcerer.

I have to say, though, that it took me until well into WTNF until I connected the dots about just who is turning into a merry little murderer here.

*giggles* I think I picked it up fairly soon - after all, his title is mentioned often enough.

[winter]

The one thing that struck me wasn't when I read it, but when my mother did - the murder of children was a big stumbling block for her and she almost put the book down entirely. Friedman did hit on the one act that's both personal and utterly abhorrable, rendering Gerald irredeemably evil from the word go.

[trobadora]

That's a great point - she packed so much into the prologue, and even if you hear nothing about the Unnamed here, you can still see that this isn't just a murderer; there's more darkness than that here. And it's not in the fae, it's just him, calmly deciding that yes, this is what he's going to do, and then letting nothing hold him back. That same single-minded determination he applies to other things, later. Chilling, and utterly fascinating.

I think alighiera used to rec the books with a warning not to be put off by the prologue - your mother probably could have used that!

[sinisterf.livejournal.com]

I agree that this scene, without a doubt, presented him as evil. Not to mention his specific delight in the torture of women. It was all rather disgusting, and bit hard to deal with.

However, I think these aspects are what make the books so interesting. Damien and Gerard’s interaction smacks of so much more than just entertainment. Their interaction changes over time, but more than that, it changes them, and maybe even more importantly, it changes how we view them. Almost as if Gerard seduces the reader as much as he seduces Damien. I am having trouble articulating what I mean (too much paper writing has stolen all my words), but this progression is what sold this book to me as a classic (meaning one of those books I read over and over again).

Most fantasy just provides an interesting story, but I think these books have the possibility of being read much deeper than that, and as such stick with the reader longer. The conflicts the characters face as far as morality etc goes are certainly capable of being applied on a deeper level. Of course maybe I have been close reading too much literature lately...

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

Yay fun discussion! What I noticed most about the prologue was the atmosphere, the lines with which she builds up tension to the discovery of what he has done
'nevertheless she was chilled to the bone as she entered the cold stone keep, and only her knowledge that the chill was rooted deep inside, in the heart of her fear, caused her to give over her coat and surcoat to the servant who waited within'
'and that she lacked the resources to read what they said, and thus must descend to him uninformed.'
'The library was empty, and lit only by a single candle. Kindled long ago.' All this giving it a seriously dark impression long before you actually reach the part about the sacrifice - but perhaps this is just me as i actually read the other books first and so had a fairly good idea where this was going and that it wasn't going to be ending all that well... Definitely agreeing with you about the chilling although I have to say I abosulutely loved it!

But also what I thought made the prologue so powerful was how unlike anything else it is... As if mz Friedman is deliberately setting him up as hero - focus of good - beautiful, brilliant and then abosultely damning him beyond any redepmtion... As if she was making a point on all the absurdly good characters or heroes from other books and saying hhhhm yes but what would happen if someone with all the potential for good finds the situation that they cannot bear (his being the heart attack and potential death)what if then they find themselves more on a level with the evil... Sort of as if she is raising the question of is it actually worse for someone with all that good to fall than say a normal person...
Also I loved the almost regretful way that he talks to her 'and I would have surrendered even that for you, in its proper time' as if he recognises everything he is losing and would have far rather continued with who he was - not just evil for the sake of it which so many villainous characters seem to adopt (which while certainly entertaining generally comes of more amusing than actually frightening...) Just my thoughts - luv to see what everyone else thinks!!!!

[trobadora]

but perhaps this is just me

No, you're definitely right there - she has a way with words that I seriously admire, a kind of lyrical prose that she's using to great effect here to set a mood. (And I love just how chilling it is - this kind of thing gives me shivers in the best kind of way!)

And yeah, you're right, she's setting him up not as a devil but a fallen angel - I'm sure it's no accident that his chief sin, here and always, is pride. He can't bear not to see his creation come to fruition, and he sacrifices everything else to that.

Also I loved the almost regretful way that he talks to her

He still has that human touch here - as he says, if he didn't love her, there would be no power in the sacrifice. He's far into the darkness, but not yet all the way - a long way, in fact, from where he's headed, where a single act of compassion could be his undoing. And over the course of the trilogy, we see him recover that much of humanity - enough to believe he can make it all the way back, retrace his steps, as it were, if that makes sense.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

It's all that potential to be heroic that makes him so interesting for me. He could have been one of the greatest figures in history, but then chose a path away from goodness because of what would have happened if he had gone on and behaved. Question is - would it have been better if his potential had been used only for "good" and then lost after a few more years, or that he preserved himself and spent centuries honing his abilities?

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

The first time I read the prologue (and I was *spoiled* for the murder) it hit me like a brick. The sheer creepiness of atmosphere that keeps tightening like a screw, the contrast between Almea's love and spirited defence for her husband and her murder...

I also never managed to get over the prologue in my reactions to Gerald... I love him dearly (honestly, who doesn't?), but his 'sacrifice' wasn't just his humanity - he sacrificed what wasn't his, and though he's forgiven for part of it later, I never managed to forgive him as much as I wanted to.

I didn't feel the prologue went slow at all. I overlooked a lot, trying to get on faster (and will have to pay great attention to all things fae-related this time 'round), but if I have issues about slow pace, it's with the second book, not the first.

But I do think it's the most reader-attention grabbing opening imaginable. Those who don't run will be hooked for good. I was ;). And dumping us in the middle of the new world (with just the right balance to be intriguing, but not confusing, worked really well. I adore the "looks like Fantasy, but is SF" mix.

I didn't even catch the Prophet-reference the first time, which got me in trouble later, and neither the fact that one of his children isn't dead (and did *that* ever confuse me when Andrys showed up...).

Recreating Earth... that bit with the CD and the 'is book, but how to read it' (which I also overlooked the first time) is awesomeness ;).

I'm so glad you're doing this reading thing, *and* the intros - it's just that even in the prologue alone it made me realise how much I overlooked before. Yay!

[trobadora]

I never managed to forgive him as much as I wanted to.

That's very interesting! I've never had any trouble with that, maybe because I'm simply fascinated by slightly (or more than slightly) sociopathic characters in fiction, and somehow keep that completely separate from my reaction to real-world crimes. Maybe it's also that I usually can relate more easily to those who fall into the darkness than to those who don't; I'm not sure. *ponders*

and neither the fact that one of his children isn't dead

That's explicitly discussed in the second book - Jenseny brings it up, just in time to set up the Andrys storyline for the third book. *g*

Recreating Earth... that bit with the CD and the 'is book, but how to read it' (which I also overlooked the first time) is awesomeness ;).

Isn't it? I wonder how much he did manage to figure out during those nine hundred years. He seems to have had quite the collection of Earth artifacts, after all.

Glad you're enjoying this so far - I'm having great fun with it too!

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

i'm very curious - i read in wrong order with crown of shadows first so when i read prologue I knew who the prophet was + that he had killed his family so I kind of saw that coming but I already knew he was a totally fascinating character and one I liked so that didnt throw me so much - did people who read the prologue first not find him so interesting then (although thats probably the wrong word more like compelling...)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I really fell for Gerald later in the book, when we get to see him interact with Damien. Before that he was interesting, but I couldn't quite figure out where to put him.

[nebulia.livejournal.com]

One thing that interests me (that you brought up) is fear (esp.regarding Gerald), how BSR kicks off this trilogy with a big heap of it. Fear was something that seemed like a theme throughout--I can remember more than one time where Damien thought that there was fear in Gerald's voice, etc, Gerald using fear as sustenance, Gerald's fear of Hell... It's interesting to me that as the trilogy goes on, you see less and less of Gerald being feared (though this isn't to say that he's not) and more and more of Gerald fearing. Some of that, of course, is character development, but I think that that switch is really cemented with this prologue.

Someone above mentioned missing Gerald not killing his firstborn--GOD DID THAT BOTHER ME. Like, throughout BSR and WTNF, I was like, "Almea said they had three kids, but she only saw two bodies...WHERE'S KID NUMBER THREE?!" I wondered if it was a typo, anything...untied ends like that totally bothered me, so I was inordinately pleased (though I really don't care much for Andrys) that there was a reason for not mentioning Eric. XD

[trobadora]

It's interesting to me that as the trilogy goes on, you see less and less of Gerald being feared (though this isn't to say that he's not) and more and more of Gerald fearing.

Yes, you're right! That is truly fascinating. I'll have to ponder that some more ...

GOD DID THAT BOTHER ME.

Clearly you are more observant than most of us! :D

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

One of the thing about the prologue is that I get kinda irritated by Almea. She's so worshipful of her husband (it says something about Gerald, also, that this is the kind of woman he loves), so dismissing of herself and her own capacities.

"A very rare, very special occurence for a world next to the heart of the galaxy."
One of the thing that always confuses me when I reread those books is whether Erna is close or far from the center of the galaxy, and whether True Night is rare because Erna's sky is usually very alight with the Core, or whether it's even darker than Earth's nights.

"The sacrifice is not of your body," he explained. His voice was cold in the darkness. "It is ... of my humanity."
Powerful line, and very efficient in establishing Gerald. At the same time it's a bit infuriating... give me a break, I'm not going to feel sorry for your manpain when you're stuffing your own wife into that fridge. What's the next, that it's hurting you more than it hurts her? Yeah, right.

I have a theme song for the prologue (and the themes of Sacrifice) it is Leonard Cohen's Song of Isaac.

[trobadora]

The Core is usually lighting up the nights - there's a lovely description in WTNF, if I recall correctly. The way I understand it, Erna is above the galactic center - much closer to it than we are, but because it's above the galactic plane, there are less stars on the other side, so when the Core and the moon sets it gets far darker than it ever does on Earth.

I hear you on Gerald's manpain. *g* But I have to admit that line totally works for me. Not just because it establishes his character, but also because how different this is from what you usually get when there's talk of "sacrifices". Fascinating to me.

[stormbringer986.livejournal.com]

Honestly, without the prologue I'm not sure I would have been interested enough to read the rest of the book. I was completely hooked by it, which is unusual considering so many books take 100 pages to really pull someone in. When I finished the prologue and it jumped to Damien, I was left sitting there thinking "Wait, I want to know what happened with the part I was just reading!"

It pretty much made the series for me. Whenever I think about the books, I usually wind up thinking about the prologue. In fact, I'm trying to get one of my friends to read the series right now and I forced her to read it when she was over one day. Her response was "Why did you make me do that? Now I want to read the rest."

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

I felt a little that way when i was reading it the first time. It is like she puts a lot more care into her introduction of Gerald than she does with the guy who becomes the main narrator... I didnt really think it was overly dramatic though but that may just be my taste or lack of it speaking... there something very visual about her style of writing - i could so easily imagine a picture or even film of the scene even though she does not actually seem to describe as such...

[squeakygeeky]

Does anyone have the paperback edition where an excerpt from the prologue is printed just inside the cover? It sounded so overly dramatic that I began reading the series just to see if it was that awful, which it wasn't, of course though I do enjoy reading much of it for the lulz. I thought the full prologue was really creepy the second time around, I guess because I knew exactly what was coming.

I love how Gerald feels he has to explain everything. You just killed her children, Gerald, Almea does not really care what is or isn't a "necessary part of the process." I love how Gerald's use of the fae is so strongly rooted in having such an ideal of what's right and then betraying it--really very clinically.

PS-I am so impressed with those who caught the thing with the number of children the first time around. In CoS I as all "what? huh? who is this supposed descendant? Gerald totally killed all his children, right?" and I had to go back and read the prologue.

[trobadora]

I think a lot of it would sound quite overblown out of context, but Friedman has a way of building up a scene that when you arrive at the high drama, it feels quite natural. I'm seriously impressed by that - and I absolutely love her lyrical prose, as I said somewhere above.

In CoS I as all "what? huh? who is this supposed descendant? Gerald totally killed all his children, right?" and I had to go back and read the prologue.

It's discussed explicitly in WTNF - I don't think I'd have picked up on it before that, either. But I barely remember the first time I read it; it was such a rush, and I started rereading almost as soon as I was done. So it all blurs together a bit. *g*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

There is a lot of fear from Almea, but it works for me (most of the time) because she tends to find new things to worry about. It's not ideal writing, but it still distracts greatly from the way a lot of background info is passed on. If she hadn't shivering her way along, the prologue would have been a very dry thing to read.

[niciasus.livejournal.com]

I didn't get a chance to re-read the prologue but I do remember when I read the part about the children, that, oh hell no, I can't read this. But I pushed through this remembering this is fiction after all, and there was a point to this.

What it did was made me curious. Gerald being a religious man and founder of the faith, I wanted to know what motivations and desires would push a man so that he would seek darkness to accomplish his goals and to sacrifice his family for such goals.

The love for his family so less than his personal needs. It painted a horrible picture of Gerald and here, I think Friedman was excellent. A very good setup for later chapters as learn more about Gerald. How we began to sympathize but not admire him. This story is about redemption for the Neocount.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

The prologue is a bit of a gamble. Either it will hook the reader until the end, or it's going to turn them away immediately.

The love for his family so less than his personal needs.

What always makes me speculate is whether he is being truthful when he claims that if this all had happened later in life, he would not have resorted to murder to stay alive.

[alice_montrose]

Ah yes... the infamous prologue. How could I ever forget reading it? A friend of mine told me, "you'll read the prologue to these books and then you won't be able to stop reading" and she was so right. True, she also spoiled the fact that I would love Gerald by telling me the most wondrous things about him, but *cough* I don't mind. Anyway, I had been forewarned. However, I can't really describe the glee that I felt reading it for the first time.

Anyway, as a mood-setter, it's a good introduction to Gerald as a character, because we see him through the eyes of someone who is not Damien, and that's a plus for me. Did you notice how Gerald's own POV is mostly avoided, like it's very difficult to write? (alighiera, I know you have your own experience in how hard one writes from Gerald's POV... except for when he's feeling evil and homicidal. *eg*)

I'm still not sure what to make of Almea. At first glance, I'd say she's a strong woman in her time, and certainly has some guts. She is devoted to her family, loves her husband... yet sees the potential darkness in Gerald. I think we also get a better view of Gerald's frustration and rage with the Church as seen by a witness rather than the character's own feelings on the matter... though that would have been interesting to read. Also, the contrast between the image of him we are presented with in her thoughts, and the reality which she finds when she gets home (foreshadowed by the gloomy setting at the very beginning) is quite interesting to explore.

RE: Church. Perhaps we should discuss this separately at some point, because throughout the books we get a lot of information about the Church of the One God, and the difference in doctrines between past and present, between Eastern and Western Autarchy, as well as Eastern and western Continents. And it is definitely interesting to see where they departed from the Prophet's vision and where they kept true to it.

[trobadora]

Oh, that's a good point about Gerald's POV! It's very rare in the books, and I'm going to have to pay special attention to it when it comes up.

I like Almea - she never seemed weak to me, and she seemed to see Gerald pretty clearly, apart from that last step. She was aware that he was sliding into something dark and unpleasant, just not how far along he already was, how far he was willing to go. And since we do see Gerald eventually make his way out of that darkness again, over the course of the trilogy, we can't even say she deluded herself thinking he could still be saved.

And I imagine we'll discuss the Church as individual aspects come up - we can definitely have a separate discussion of the whole thing at some point, but I wouldn't exclude anything from the chapter discussions.

[juonetar.livejournal.com]

Just one remark before I go on reading the first chapter... The BSR prologue being full of various first mentions - I just now noticed what is the first thing we learn of Gerald - the fact that he designed a castle, and a mention of his "unerring aesthetic sense" as his strongest attribute.

It's very true. Sense of aesthetics probably is the one thing that stays the same in every regeneration of Gerald Tarrant.

That, and pride.

[trobadora]

Oh yes - those, and his thirst for knowledge. Quite the combination, isn't it?

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

All the prologues for the Coldfire books intrigue me, because you come to each one like a little mystery that's only fitted into context later in the story--one of those "things you don't know you know." It threw me off on my first reading, because it felt like beginning at the end, but as I read further it had the strange effect of making me feel like I was ahead of the game, knowledge-wise.

When I reread it, I'm always struck anew by Gerald's emotions on killing his wife--not because he obviously loves her even though he kills her, but because he's so calm about it that seems obvious to me he has oceans of reactions swimming beneath the surface. I suspect I could take an entire trip through the trilogy doing nothing but unpacking them (and his icy calmness on the spot says something of its own about his personality).

The division between the Church's vision and the Prophet's - how do you think it started? He seems to have attempting to demystify the fae at the same time as he used faith as a tool to focus it, whereas the Church seems to have believed the two incompatible, and consequently demonised private sorcery. I'm utterly fascinated by this topic. Thoughts?

Remember that the period of time Gerald lived in was roughly equivalent to our Renaissance? (Well, it was, in point of fact, pretty much started by him, but still.) I think that's a big clue. That's when scientific thought began to rear its head in the Christian world. There were those who believed that demystifying the world could be done without demystifying God...and that in fact a better understanding of the world could be an aid to faith. Then there were those, of course, who considered this a threat to either the natural order or their ability to believe, and who fiercely resisted any such thing.

From his own words, Gerald was stuck in pretty much the same position, only the issue was more immediate--survival. Framing his argument in terms of faith harnessed the human imagination, but it also created the same trap--the response to religion tends to be emotional rather than intellectual, for most people, and thus their concept of "good" tends to be defined via comfort zone.

I wonder how much of his reasoning he put forward--if he kept the "Man creates God" thing a secret from the layperson. But here's a funny thing: I wonder if in hindsight, with his now-superior understanding of fear, it seems more obvious to him how it was all destined to go down. After all, the whole point from the outset was that humans feared the fae. I think Tarrant overlooked the difficulty the average person would have with making the leap from Enemy to Tool. It'd be ironic if his stint as the Hunter was what let him see how to avoid the mistakes he made.

[trobadora]

I love the prologues too - they give us so much that could never have been integrated into the narrative proper, and I think it's a genius way of incorporating that.

I suspect I could take an entire trip through the trilogy doing nothing but unpacking them (and his icy calmness on the spot says something of its own about his personality).

That's utterly fascinating - I hope you do follow up on this! (And yes, I agree about everything we don't see of his reactions here - as someone said above, it's very telling that we get Gerald's POV so rarely in the trilogy, and generally need to piece together his character from what we see from the outside, just like Damien does.)

Remember that the period of time Gerald lived in was roughly equivalent to our Renaissance?

Oh, yes, that's an excellent point! Somehow I hadn't thought of it before in that context, but now it seems so obvious I can't believe I missed it. Because yes, absolutely, that is exactly the divide that's at play here.

I wonder how much of his reasoning he put forward--if he kept the "Man creates God" thing a secret from the layperson.

I've often wondered about a similar thing - how much does this entire faith depend on its believers not truly knowing what it is they're doing? To what degree can faith actually work and impress itself on the fae if people know it's a means to an end - if it's more like a peculiar version of Pascal's wager than genuine belief? Or does belief in the project suffice? I've never managed to truly settle that question in my own mind.

And wow, that is a cool thought, about his time as the Hunter giving him an in-depth understanding of human fear that he lacked before!

[fluffyllama.livejournal.com]

Yep, I'm reading for the first time :-) I haven't read many of the comments below -- I'm not bothered by spoilers in general, but it's kind of fun seeing what I think of it with only what I know from trobadora *g*

I think if I'd picked it up and skimmed the beginning in a bookshop I might have been put off by things like 'unhorse' mentioned without any way to picture it initially. I'm not usually very visual but things like that do bother me. Getting to the end of the prologue though, I'm quite enthusiastic about reading it. I love how dark it is, and I'm interested to see how this fits into the rest of the story.

[trobadora]

The discussion's been great fun, so remember to go back in the end and read it. :-)

Unhorses etc. - that's an interesting point about not being able to picture it. There's a lot of name-dropping and hinting in the prologue! It throws you right into the middle of the world, and you get a more full picture only with time.

I'm wondering - is the fantasy/SF mix confusing at first? You know, since Terran colonists and demonlings don't generally go together. *g*

I'm glad you're enjoying it so far!

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not a new reader to this fandom, in fact I reread those books at least three times as you have to if you intend to write fanfiction.
I first read them in German language since that's where I'm living now but got dissapointed by the very poor translation, for example of medical terms like 'heart failure' which was translated into German as 'Herzanfall' which, again, means a heart attack - a different thing entirely especially if you're a physician yourself and can tell the difference. I got extremely bothered because I thought it a good story and simply couldn't believe the authoress would make such mistakes. Therefore I went for the English books and am glad I did it. The books are my favorites for 3 years now. Too bad the fandom isn't as big as that of LOTR for example...
Now to the questions:
1) I like the prolog very much just because it's so intriguing. I immediately wanted to know more!
2) As someone who read SF before even knowing Fantasy existed I like the trilogy especially because the mix is that good. There are many books attemting at Science Fantasy and I've read a lot of them but except Anthony Piers's 'Incarnations of Immortality' I just can't think of any that good.
3)How appropriate that the trilogy begins with fear? Very appropriate since fear and fears is one of the main themes of the books. I mean, the Hunter feeds on it, Damien harbor many, and just think of Andrys with his history... As for appropriate for readers - well, that's Dark Fantasy. You don't like, you don't read.
4)I think the Division started because Gerald didn't want to give up his personal magic (I'm not sure if that's said somewhere in the books or in one of those fanfics, much little in number, BTW!). I do not think either his motives for creating the Church in the first place were all that althruistic. It had most possibly been a way to, no, a craving for, Power. Power is something someone who was powerless would never give up again once he reached it - the whole first book is about this topic. And yes, I think Gerald knew powerlessness well. Add to that Gerald's hunger to know and thus to research and go further and then compare it to the wish of ordinary men to keep and to preserve - and you have your Division. Further more, a not-yet powerful organisation like the Church couldn't tolerate someone who could endanger it by becoming a person more worthy of worshipping than their God. It would twist all the basics that Church was build on since -as far as I understand that- all worshipping should be directed at that deity.
5) I most surely don't want to know how far the Neocount would have gone with the Power of the Church to back him! Well, we all know what he's capable of...

[trobadora]

Hi there, and welcome aboard! :-)

Too bad the fandom isn't as big as that of LOTR for example...

Couldn't agree more! The fandom is much too small. But we're pretty active anyway, considering. At least we do our best. *g*

Like you, I was a SF fan before I started reading fantasy, and I'm still a SF fan first and foremost. So I guess it's not that surprising that this is the kind of fantasy I like best, with a solid SF underpinning.

I think the Division started because Gerald didn't want to give up his personal magic (I'm not sure if that's said somewhere in the books or in one of those fanfics, much little in number, BTW!).

Yes, that's certainly one reason, but the Church itself wasn't always set against personal sorcery, and that must have started somewhere. Possibly in a bid to wrestle power from the Prophet. *g*

I fully agree that the Church as Tarrant envisioned it wasn't a wholly altruistic project, but I don't think it was mainly about personal power for him, either. It's too huge a project, and one he knew couldn't fully come to fruition in his lifetime. (I rather doubt he planned on his bid for immortality right from the start, after all.) I'm sure his motives were more complex than that.

Further more, a not-yet powerful organisation like the Church couldn't tolerate someone who could endanger it by becoming a person more worthy of worshipping than their God.

Oh, this is an excellent point - that a figure such as the Prophet would be a danger to the very project of the Church, if he were worshipped too much, simply by the power of the popular imagination. I hadn't thought of it this way before!

Btw, since you don't have an LJ account - if you comment here again, would you mind signing your comments so that we know it's you?

[sunscald.livejournal.com]

Another belated join to the discussion...I'm *so* glad to have found this site! I just reread the prologue and dissected it for writing/craft concerns, and it really is brilliant.
1. It sets the arc of tension for the next hundred and fifty pages or so. As one commenter already mentioned, if this prologue didn't turn you off with its violence, CS Friedman had you in her clutches for the next three books.
2. Worldview exposition cleverly handled. To some people it felt like expo overload; for me, the overload was attached to a horrifying event (Tarrant killing his family) and pretty brilliantly shoehorned in. I scarcely noticed it was a wall of exposition until I did a closer read.
3. Prose style is melodramatic but dark. Tone/prose style shows exactly what kind of dark fantasy we're in for for the rest of the book, and that contract is fulfilled (it's not like it's a dark prologue, then suddenly turns into a cute happy bunny book...if we view the hook of the prologue as a contract w/ the reader).
Going to go read the next several chapters now. So, so happy!

[trobadora]

Welcome aboard! :-)

It is a brilliant beginning. I absolutely admire Friedman's style, and the way she seamlessly, effortlessly integrates what is actually a huge amount of exposition.

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

I went to read the beginning of the book again and discovered that I had missed the entire prologue! Apparently when I thumbed the book open I went straight to the beginning of Book I without realizing there was a prologue at all.

So - I read the entire trilogy without reading this bit. I think as far as background and knowing things, it didn't matter - we know enough about the Hunter pretty quickly. It might have affected the tone though. I started with a fun Ren. Faire feel of Damien walking through Jaggonath and finding the Fae Shoppe and Ciani. When the Forest and the Hunter were first mentioned I might have felt a bit more of the horror if I'd read this first. Also, I might have paid more attention to the theology earlier if I'd been tipped off that it was an issue.

This prologue actually made me more sympathetic to Gerald and understanding of what he did than anything in the rest of the books. He killed the kids quickly and he was saving himself from hell - because he was going to die and the church had condemned him to a literal hell. He had important things that needed to be seen and done and his family would be going to a literal heaven. It's wrong but it is somewhat rational. You get the sense too that he's been spiraling into a sort of insanity before this happened - Almea makes that clear.

So, the prophet wanted to use the fae to learn to control it while the Church thought the better path was to not touch it at all. 900 years later the Matriarch decided to experiment with using the fae just like the Prophet. I understand why the idea was so shocking. I'm still not sure that Gerald wanted to control the fae in order to use its power or whether his main goal was just to use it to find a way to eliminate its effects.

[trobadora]

(Catching up on things, sorry for the late replies ...)

Interesting that you missed the prologue - I don't remember what I thought when I read it the first time, but I don't think it left much of an impression. Like much in the first book, it has far more impact if you already know what comes after.I like your point about Gerald's rational evil - you can see where he's coming from, even if it's an absolutely horrific response to the situation.

I think it's important to remember that Gerald is an adept, and that colours everything about the fae. He can see and smell and hear and feel it all the time; he knows it's in and on everything on Erna, and he must know that blinding yourself to it, cutting yourself off from it won't stop it from interacting with everything else. Living on Erna without paying attention to the fae would have to involve some willful blindness, and I can't see Gerald the scientist ever seeing that as a viable option.