Coldfire reread: Black Sun Rising - Chapters 2, 3 and 4

[trobadora]

Wow, lots of fascinating discussion with the last chapter! And I keep being surprised by all the details we uncover that I'd completely forgotten about.

Now, let's continue with the next few chapters:

Plot Summary

Chapter 2
The Patriarch receives Damien, and they discuss his mission: to prove to the Eastern Autarchy that sorcery can be useful in the service of the Church. The Patriarch, unlike the Matriarch of the Western Autarchy, distrusts the fae. He believes sorcery will corrupt the Church, and the power of sorcery will corrupt the ones who wield it. However, Damien realises the fae responds to the Patriarch, whether he knows it or not. In the end, the Patriarch reluctantly agrees to Damien's mission, in order to prevent a schism in the Church.

Chapter 3
A young woman, Narilka, walks home from work late in the evening. She is later than usual, and for the first time she is out at night when sun and Core have set. Her parents have never let her out at night since she fits the Hunter's type exactly. On the way home she encounters a (*coughcough*) stranger - not a normal man. Promising her safety, he escorts her home and shares his vision of the night and the dark fae with her - a thing of beauty, not something to hide away from.

Chapter 4
A group of nonhuman beings who feed on humans (and rakh) arrive at the shore. They set off a signal that draws a ship which can take them into the human lands.

Quotes

• He wondered if the Patriarch even knew, or if the man attributed the force of his own presence to mere human concepts, like charisma. Bearing. Instead of recognizing the truth - which was that his every thought sent tiny ripples coursing through the fae, altering his environment to suit his will. A natural, in the vernacular. A born sorcerer, whose chosen profession forbade him from acknowledging the very source of his authority.


• We won't tame this tyrannical force by parceling it out to sorcerers, for their paltry spells and their squalid conjurations. The more we expose it to humankind's greed, the more it stinks of our excesses. Gannon saw that very clearly, back in the Revival. He outlawed private sorcery for that very reason - and I agree with him, heart and soul. If you need an example of what the fae can do to a man, once it has hold of him ... consider the Prophet's Fall. Or the First Sacrifice.


• "And then came a letter. From your Matriarch, your Holy Mother. Informing me that the west had begun an investigation into how the fae might be manipulated for Church purposes, by a chosen few trained toward that end. Sorcery! Dress it up in holy silks as you will, it still stinks. I argued with her, pleaded with her, I would have gone so far as to threaten her if I thought it would do any good ... but your Holy Mother is a headstrong woman, and her mind was made up. And now I am watching my Church dissolve, Reverend Vryce, my dream of salvation corrupted ..." He turned back to Damien, cold eyes narrowed. "And you are the vehicle of that corruption."


• "That you're wrong," Damien answered quietly. "That our traditional belief system is outdated. That our ancestors perceived of the world in terms of black and white, when nearly all of it is made up of shades of gray. That the Church must adapt to that truth, in order to remain a vital entity on this world. The survival of our dream," he stressed, "depends upon it."


• "Never been outside, when sun and Core had set. Never! I wasn't aware the fear had reached such an extreme here. Even now ... you don't look. You won't see."
  "See what?" she managed.
  "The night. The beauty of it. The power. The so-called dark fae, a force so fragile that even the moonlight weakens it - and so strong in the darkness that death itself falls back before it. The tides of night, each with its own color and music. An entire world, child! - filled with things that can't exist when the light in the heavens is too strong."
  "Things which the sun destroys."
  He smiled, but his eyes remained cold. "Just so."


• "I won't hurt you," he promised. And a hint of a smile crossed his face - as if his own benevolence amused him. "As for what you do to yourself, for having known me ... that's in your own hands. Now, I think, you'd better go home."

Thoughts

• The Patriarch utterly believes that sorcery brings corruption, that it can never be reconciled with the Church. (Rather ironic, given what he himself is.) And Damien, on the other side, is convinced that sorcery is simply a tool, and the Church must change and adapt. What do you think?


• The Patriarch believes the Prophet tried to sell his soul to buy more time. I think that's mentioned somewhere else as well - very interesting in light of the truth, isn't it?


• "a Church that still bled from the memory of its greatest defeat" – what do you think the Patriarch is referring to here? The crusade against the Forest?


• I've always been impressed by the vision of the night our mysterious stranger shows to Narilka, and clearly so is she. Why do you think he showed it to her? And why do you think Narilka was spared? (And does he really teach her to See? That's certainly what it sounds like to me, not just a brief sharing of vision.)


• The nonhumans from the last chapter are torn between carrying out their plans and simply sating their hunger. A conflict we'll be encountering many times, with many characters, and different outcomes, all over the book – hunger is one of the main themes. Damien even cites the Prophet about that - how humanity is defined by being able to rise above animal instincts. And I never noticed just how central that theme was, before. Thoughts?

As before, feel free to join existing comment threads, or start your own. Have fun!

And on Thursday, we'll be continuing with Chapter 5. (You can check up on the reading schedule here.)

Comments

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

Wow I love these chapters!
Especially the quotes with him and the patriach - i never actually noticed before how he is arguing about black and white and how everything is shades of grey before he actually meets the hunter... It is like that line totally sums up the changes he goes through in the books... premonition...spooky... And wasnt there a line by the hunter somewhere that says almost the same thing :)

[trobadora]

It is like that line totally sums up the changes he goes through in the books...

It's that attitude that makes his whole alliance with the Hunter possible, and all the changes that come from that. If he believed more in absolutes, one of them would have killed the other very early on. (I know who I'd bet on!)

[squeakygeeky]

I thought Narilka was very boring the first time I read this. "Oh, I am a beautiful and delicate flower who has never been out at night." I wish her profession had been mentioned in this chapter because silversmithing is really cool and would have won me over to her right away no matter how damsel-in-distressy she was portrayed at first.

Gerald, on the other hand, is very interesting here. I think part of the reason he spares her is that she actually seems to grasp the beauty of the night and the dark fae. But I think it's also just a whim. He's powerful enough to let some of his victims go without it mattering (well, until now, it will soon!) and maybe this is one of the things he sees as separating himself from a mindless, hungering demon.

(Though, unfortunately, I keep expecting him to break out into The Music of the Night, which is a little distracting as I think Gerald might actually choose death over being forced to sing show tunes. Hmm...please tell me I should not write crack!fic about that.)

[trobadora]

I liked Narilka here, because - like so many other characters in these books - she is open to new experiences, and not closed-minded. Like you say, she sees the beauty of the night and thinks it worth it.

and maybe this is one of the things he sees as separating himself from a mindless, hungering demon.

Yes, I can see that very easily.

Hmm...please tell me I should not write crack!fic about that.

You know, I'm usually all for the crackfic, and I generally encourage everyone to write as much Coldfire as humanly possible, but in this case? Please do spare us. Or Gerald might decide to jump out of the books and slaughter us all for this crime. *g*

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

I actually quite liked the fact they went with the delicate and fragile little thing, and then had her being the one who, while scared senseless, still retained her inner strength and didn't run or scream or panic outwardly, which most girls in the same situation would have done.

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

That moment when Damien stands up to the Patriarch is among my favourites. If only all clergy men were like him XD

[trobadora]

It's a great moment, and a great intro to his way of thinking. Fighting evil doesn't mean having to think in absolutes, in these books - another thing I love about them.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

That, and on a different note it tickled me just the right way to learn that there was a Matriarch to match :).

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

The big difference between East and West and the Patriarch's attitude could come from proximity to the Forest and the fact it was a Church-led crusade that went wrong. The patriarch is sitting at the place where he's constantly reminded of the loss and that said loss was caused by sorcery, whereas maybe they're more liberal about it the further they are from Jaggonath.

[trobadora]

Yes, that's definitely part of it - a later chapter goes into some more detail about that. It does make sense, doesn't it?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

What always made me wonder about the Patriarch is how he managed to never realize that he's an adept. (I was re-reading that bit in CoS yesterday, and it seems that Tarrant shares my surprise.) At least the permanent Seeing must have been noticeable to him at some point - Ciani and Gerald both describe it more than once how their perception is so very different.

"a Church that still bled from the memory of its greatest defeat"

I don't think it's the Forest, not when the Western Autarchy doesn't really seem to know all that much about it. I'd expect them all to be aware of such issues. It could have something to do with Damien's surprise to see the Church in the east so much stronger than in the west. But what exactly it is...

And why do you think Narilka was spared?

Pure whim. He can't show her mercy, so it isn't that. But he's easily arrogant enough to be amused by the idea that he could have taken her life but didn't, just because it pleased him at the moment.

[trobadora]

Repression, repression, repression. *g* He must have known at some level, but utterly refused to admit it even to himself. (Not the kind of person I would trust with any kind of important decision!)

I don't think it's the Forest

Actually, in a future chapter there's more detail about the Holy War against the Forest, and it does make it seem like that's what he's talking about here. More mystery about the Western Autarchy - maybe they just forgot, or the Western Autarchy grew out of an isolated community that was already separate from the main body of the Church due to geographical reasons? It might have been small at the time ...

And yep, definitely not mercy with Narilka, but I do think it mattered that she appreciated what he showed her. He seemed pretty annoyed that people were hiding away from the night so thoroughly.

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

Actually, another thought - given how much Jaggonath is warded and protected and all that kind of thing, the Church not using said power is even more jarring. Look how much Damien squees on all the wards and protections that are in place, even in thw Fae Shoppe.

Of all the places, you'd think the Church in the city close to the forest would be willing to use it, and yet, it's the Church that refuses. Is this just the remembrance of the the past again? Or are they making a stand against the adepts?

[trobadora]

Both, I should say. The Patriarch himself is so very set against sorcery of any kind.

[alice_montrose]

I'd pretty much blame the Patriarch for that. He's seen the worst of what the fae can do, and an top of that he's a traditionalist.

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Mmh... the Patriarch is made of self-deluded awesome, because although he's so obviously misguided (and Damien shows him up quite well), his dedication to his ideas impress me. It's not bigotry, it's true fear at the thoughts of seeing his ideals crumble. Though I might not be able to view him without considering the ultimate outcome on second reading.

Narilka - oh, I quite like her, perhaps because this way she's been brought up completely sheltered (and blinded, as a consequence, as Gerald points out so effectively) reminds me of a good friend of mine :).

Though this chapter really made me wonder about the reason for Gerald's obsession with scaring beautiful young women to death. In the light of the prologue, it feels like an insult to his dead wife. However, in the light of the prologue, it also makes me wonder whether it's that sort of... delicate helplessness that attracts him *because* of his wife. In a way, he picked someone whose life was utterly dedicated to him, and he seems to twist this around in his choice of victims. Which, come to think of it, makes me think a little less of him. It also makes me wonder whether this characteristic has something to do with the bargain he struck with the demons...

Chapter 5... that sort of hunger-driven but *intelligent* evil is scary as heck throughout the books, and makes for some of the most impressive villains ever, imho.

Also (and this is basically a leftover question from the previous chapter raised again by Narilka's ability to see the dark fae): I still can't picture what 'worked' objects do as opposed to unworked ones...

[trobadora]

It's not bigotry, it's true fear at the thoughts of seeing his ideals crumble.

Yes, but it's also based on denial and self-deception, which sort of ruins the effect for me. *g*

It's interesting that you connect the Hunt to Almea - that never occurred to me. She never struck me as either helpless or delicate. Hm.

I still can't picture what 'worked' objects do as opposed to unworked ones...

That depends on what they've been Worked to do. *g* We've had materials Worked for stability (the ancient map that's been prevented from crumbling), for safety (Worked guns), or for function (firelighters, machinery Worked to spring into action faster than physics alone would allow). That's all that comes to mind off the top of my head, but maybe it helps.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

In a way, he picked someone whose life was utterly dedicated to him, and he seems to twist this around in his choice of victims.

The focus on the young women is strange, now that you mention it. That he does it because of a connection to Almea is a good explanation - it certainly makes more sense than some other possibilities. And who knows, he may be going after young women because those are the part of the population who fear him most. There's a passage somewhere saying that he finds it hard not to travel towards the Forest unconsciously because it attracts dark fae. So young women, who get told all those scary tales about what happens to unprotected young women, may just be the most compelling victims.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Well, Tarrant says at one point (I think Damien asks him, or maybe it's one of those rare Gerald-POV sections where we get to see him muse) that he preys on beautiful young women because their beauty tends to make them targets to begin with--and by this, I assume he means something similar to the real world, where attractive women have to deal with more obnoxiousness from men. Of course, on Erna, they also get to grow up being told that the Hunter will get them... But essentially, he chooses women who are brought up into the mindset of prey, but who have enough inner strength to actually try to survive.

But I admit that I do kind of wonder whether his choice of victims isn't linked to Almea somehow. Maybe beautiful, soft, and durable is his type? Or maybe (and this is getting really twisted) it's his way of snatching a the only few moments he's allowed with his wife's memory--the one where he tortures her to death, because he's not supposed to do "happy" anymore.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Heh. Is sorcery a tool or a threat to the soul? How about astronomy? Evolution? Guns, video games, TV, and Harry Potter? Given the fact that it's an argument made a thousand times over with (fill in the blank) in place of "sorcery," I'm thinking Damien's right. In many ways, the world is a canvas on which we paint with our own wills, and all these things are simply the tools we use to make our marks. What we do with them is only an extension of our own nature. If there's something there to fear, it's the individual making the choice.

But if you want to stop them, you have three options: take away their tools, kill them, or find a way to convince them to behave differently.

I find it interesting how traumatic the Church as a whole apparently found that loss to the Forest. It comes up again and again as a pivotal morale-breaker. Did it really shock them that much that it was possible to throw themselves against an enemy and lose? Or did the Church really lose that much of its strength in that battle--the greatest warriors and leaders and visionaries?

Having never quite paid attention to it before, I'm not quite sure what to make of the hunger theme yet--whether it's an aesthetic thing or if it's meant to imply something more. Maybe...I suppose that by a certain definition, pretty much everything is driven by hunger, isn't it? The Patriarch hungers for spiritual salvation for his flock as much as Damien does to vanquish evil, or Ciani for knowledge. And Tarrant hungers for many things, really. It can be good, bad, or irrelevant, depending on context.

[trobadora]

If there's something there to fear, it's the individual making the choice.

Yep, I completely agree. It's not the fae that's a corrupting force. And while there are plenty of tools that are best restricted and not made freely available to everyone, I'm having a hard time thinking of any that should never, under any circumstances be used by anyone.

Did it really shock them that much that it was possible to throw themselves against an enemy and lose? Or did the Church really lose that much of its strength in that battle--the greatest warriors and leaders and visionaries?

I wonder about that too. But it seems from later bits of info that the defeat in the Forest led to other wars - possibly other enemies using the moment the Church was weakened.

I suppose that by a certain definition, pretty much everything is driven by hunger, isn't it?

Yes, absolutely. The interesting thing is how often it's explicitly called hunger here, though, thereby connecting all these disparate interests and desires. I'm going to be paying attention to that a lot more this time through!

[alice_montrose]

Grabbed from one of alighiera's comments above: It's quite an intriguing situation with the Patriarch. Possibly the first adept to head the Church since the Prophet - and one with a completely opposite approach.

An approach that includes complete ignorance that he is an Adept, and if the other Adepts and Sorcerors in the city know they haven't said a thing.

The interaction between the two is really interesting to follow. I have the feeling that the local worshippers kind of look up to the Patriarch as a power figure, and he is used to getting his way. He is being challenged to deal with Damien, who comes from a different background and has a more... shall we say "relaxed" attitude when it comes to several things, and as he is a man who is used to getting his way he doesn't really like the situation. (Which is why Damien doesn't get the best students.) As for his approach to Church teachings and laws, the Patriarch seems pretty traditionalist to me - but he also knows things that lower ranks do not, and this enforces his belief that sorcery and the Church don't go well together.

Either that, or Damien slept through classes when they discussed the Forest and it never came up in any exams afterwards.

Or it could be that not much is known about the Forest in the west. If the final crusade really is the "greatest defeat" (and I also suspect this to be true), then the Church would have been devastated, and lost many followers. Not just on the battlefield, either; people whose faith was shattered by this defeat would have turned away from the Church. I also suspect the best leaders went ahead and died in battle, so the Church would have been left leaderless and in a state of disarray.

Do we know if the separation of the Church happened before this crusade, or was it a direct result of it? (I have theories for both, really.)

Gerald, well! We get to see a glimpse of the courteous Neocount (in all his dark glory, true, but that's besides the point) And I must say, I can see why Almea loved him, and why people and armies followed him. He can be very tempting and inspiring. I also sense a hint of humour and self-irony directed at his own behaviour. And he is pleased to see what level the fear has reached, which is always bound to put him in a good mood. *g*

Narilka was probably spared because Gerald was in a good mood. We'll never know why he felt so generous... In fact, I think he admits to Karril that he spared her on a whim? Anyway, I did not expect to see her again, so her showing up at the end of BSR and having a pretty important part in COS was unexpected... and nice. I like Narilka after her meeting with Gerald. She is the one woman we get that sees Gerald as a protector.

Hunger has always been a theme in the novels. It is of many types, but the most important are hunger for power and hunger for knowledge. And Gerald, after all these centuries, still hungers for more. *hugs him*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

An approach that includes complete ignorance that he is an Adept, and if the other Adepts and Sorcerors in the city know they haven't said a thing.

Given that it took Damien about five seconds to figure it out, at least some of the others must have noticed. Among Jaggonath's fae-touching population, it's probably the worst-kept secret ever.

but he also knows things that lower ranks do not, and this enforces his belief that sorcery and the Church don't go well together.

One thing that amuses me about the Church/sorcery situation is how the Prophet gets cited as a warning example for the evils of sorcery. Given that he only went over the edge after the Church outlawed sorcery, it's quite a hypocritical approach.

[trobadora]

ot just on the battlefield, either; people whose faith was shattered by this defeat would have turned away from the Church.

And that, in turn, would have influenced the fae, weakening the remaining Church further ...

AFAIK there's nothing in the books telling us when the separation happened, but yeah, you could make convincing arguments for both.

And he is pleased to see what level the fear has reached, which is always bound to put him in a good mood. *g*

Did he seem pleased to you? He seemed rather irritated to me.

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

I wonder if Narilka was spared because of her prayer at the beginning. It was pretty intense - the "Gods above, just get me home ...." Maybe the iezu of beauty, I've forgotten her name, put some kind of illusion over her - (beauty? receptiveness?) that made Gerald hesitate and want to share the beauty of the fae with her. Or maybe the Church's one God protected her - after all, she ended up doing his work in the third book.

I had forgotten that the dark fae was musical and had lights - just like the fae that Jenseny saw.

I thought the passage where Narilka says "this is old earth sciene" was very interesting. She was saying that being able to control the dark fae meant being able to instinctively know and work with the laws of physics, wasn't she? Like being able to do things instinctively that humans had needed machines and computers for before. No wonder Gerald loves it. Maybe it's the physics of deep space, away from matter and light.

Later when Gerald breaks the enchantment the dark fae in his eyes just looks dead to her - absorbing all light and with no music.

[trobadora]

I don't think there was any divine interference - Gerald probably was fairly impressed with her reaction to the dark fae, and imagine how rare it must be for him to find someone who appreciates its beauty, even knowing what it is. (Incidentally, I really adore the descriptions of the beauty of the dark fae all through the books.)

And you're right, the bit about earth science is fascinating. It shows just how much the human population on Erna has turned the fae into something mystic, not a force of nature but something supernatural. And Narilka can see the patterns - when she's given that brief insight, she understands that. Pretty impressive, if you ask me. (Can you tell I love Narilka? *g*)