hunters_forest | Coldfire reread: Black Sun Rising

carmentalis.livejournal.com posting in

Re-reading together with you all is absolutely wonderful. I hope you're all enjoying yourselves as much as I am!

Today it's chapter 5 - we'll go clothes shopping, face an earthquake, almost do something incredibly stupid, see something odd, and finally feel very old and tired about it all.

Plot summary

Chapter 5 starts off with Damien shopping for clothes while Ciani offers fashion advice - the fae is not just useful for major tasks, but also when it comes to picking clothes. They are having a pleasant time when one of the dangers of Erna hits - an earthquake strong enough to let buildings collapse. Perfect opportunity for Damien to learn a little more about quake wards, Jaggonath's precautions which are unheard of in the East, and why it is a really, really bad idea to Work during earthquakes. At the same time, Senzei almost turns himself into an object lesson for the latter when he considers Working during the quake, despite the risk of the fae frying him. Once the sun sets and the quake is over, a certain someone surfaces again and finds that the currents are not behaving as they should. Something is coming, something nasty - which he finds rather amusing. We wrap up with the Patriarch having a momentary doubt about his actions, and whether his way is worth the effort or if it isn't easier to act like Damien does - dead demons are easier to tally up than more abstract leadership services.

Quotes

She checked him out from head to foot, then did the same again. “In this outfit,” she proclaimed at last, “you will irritate the hell out of him.”
He stared at her for a minute, then broke into a grin. And turned to face the proprietor, who was nervously twisting a red silk scarf between his fingers.
“I’ll take it,” he declared.

“Open conflict is infinitely more attractive to me than fencing with hints and insinuations. I’m a lousy diplomat, Cee.”
“But a good teacher?”
“Trying to be.”

“They fry. Without exception. No human being can channel that kind of energy. Not even an adept. He must have wagered that the quake would be small, that he could control a small bit of what it released and dodge the rest. Or maybe he was drunk, and impaired in judgment. Or just stupid.” She shook her head. “I don’t understand. Only an idiot would bet his life against an earthquake. No one ever wins that game - no one. Why do they insist on trying? What can they possibly gain?”

Every few earthquakes some tormented soul took that chance, and added his dying scream to the siren’s din. Ciani couldn’t understand why - but Senzei could, all too well. He understood the hunger that consumed such people, the need that coursed through them like blood, until every living cell was saturated with it. Desire. For the one thing on Erna that Senzei might never have. The one precious thing that Nature had denied him.

He felt tired. He felt old. He was becoming aware, for the first time in his life, of a hope that had lived in him since his first moments in the Church: a desperate hope that the change would come now, in his lifetime. Not all of it - that was too much to ask for - but enough that he could see it started. Enough that he could know he had made a difference. To live as he had, to serve without question, then to die without knowing if there was a point to any of it . . . his hands clenched at his sides as he looked out over the blazing city. He wished there were truly no other choice. He wished the fae could not be used to maintain youth, and thus to prolong life. He wished he didn’t have to face that terrible decision every minute of his life: commitment to his faith versus the chance to court the fae, extend his life, and see what effect that faith would have upon future generations. Death itself was not nearly so daunting as the prospect of dying in ignorance.
Thus the Prophet was tempted, he thought darkly.

Thoughts

The hunger theme is continued here, with Senzei, and once more temptation is just beyond easy and safe reach. Later it is picked up again with the Patriarch and his temptation to use the fae for his own purposes. So far, every character has something he or she hungers for except for Ciani - she seems curious to me, but she's not as driven as the others. What do you think?

It seems odd that the east hasn't shared its earthquake defense techniques with the west. There obviously is conversation, so why did something so essential not get passed along?

The Patriarch's temptation is an interesting mirror to that of Tarrant, only that he resists. But he is older and has lived according to the rules for all his life, so it may be easier not to give in. Remember how in the prologue, Tarrant claims that if he'd not faced death at such an early age, he might not have done what he ended up doing?

The Hunter seems quite amused to find something coming towards him in the currents. I've never thought of him as someone to enjoy the approach of potential danger, but here he seems not to mind.

Given the Patriarch's thoughts about fae use and the situation of the Church, I wonder whether they stand a chance of actually succeeding. Is it realistic for them to manage to achieve the Prophet's ideal world, or are they bound to stay at the level they're at?

By now I'm sure you know what I'm going to say at this point: enjoy the discussions, and on Monday we'll tackle chapters 6-9 (don't worry, all are very short!).

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

trobadora

So far, every character has something he or she hungers for except for Ciani - she seems curious to me, but she's not as driven as the others.

I think that's probably at least partially due to first being traumatised in the rakhlands, and then having her memory suppressed by Karril to give her peace. She's not fully herself here. It sounds to me like she was plenty driven when she started that first expedition into the rakhlands. (But she'll be hungering again soon enough, when the rest of her memory and her adeptitude is taken from her.)

It seems odd that the east hasn't shared its earthquake defense techniques with the west. There obviously is conversation, so why did something so essential not get passed along?

My impression is that earthquakes are significantly rarer in the West, so they don't generally think about them too much. Just as on Earth, houses aren't built to withstand a quake in most areas – it's just too rare to be worth it. Erna being Erna, there will still be quakes, of course, but in the East it seems there couldn't be cities at all without quake wards, so it's quite a different scale.

The Patriarch's temptation is an interesting mirror to that of Tarrant, only that he resists. But he is older and has lived according to the rules for all his life, so it may be easier not to give in. Remember how in the prologue, Tarrant claims that if he'd not faced death at such an early age, he might not have done what he ended up doing?

Not only that, but when sorcery was outlawed and Tarrant refused to give it up, he was basically condemned to hell by the prayers of the faithful, remember? So he has more to fear than just death by itself. Also, the rules were changed from under him, whereas the Patriarch has lived within a stable belief system. Quite a different situation, I'd say.

But the similarity of the temptation - to see the result of your work - is striking nonetheless. (And interesting foreshadowing, too, dropped in perfectly unnoticeably here.)

Given the Patriarch's thoughts about fae use and the situation of the Church, I wonder whether they stand a chance of actually succeeding. Is it realistic for them to manage to achieve the Prophet's ideal world, or are they bound to stay at the level they're at?

My impression is that the Church's version of the Prophet's ideal (i.e. the sanitised, no-sorcery-allowed version) is bound to become exactly what the Prophet himself feared it would - namely, what it became over in Mercia: a perverted version of itself, a police state. That version can't be fully realised without suppressing any and all opposition, including the very existence of adeptitude.

From:

carmentalis.livejournal.com

But she'll be hungering again soon enough, when the rest of her memory and her adeptitude is taken from her.

She does, then. But at the moment I'm wondering what really drives her. We know everybody's goals, just not hers. Is she just minding her own business?

Erna being Erna, there will still be quakes, of course, but in the East it seems there couldn't be cities at all without quake wards, so it's quite a different scale.

I'm not so sure about fewer quakes in the west. They're everywhere throughout the trilogy, in the east and then on the Far Eastern continent as well. And Damien mentions getting caught up in a tsunami at one point, and calls them frequent. So the west has its problems with tectonic activity, but either they've got a very fatalistic attitude about it or they've never figured out quake wards.

Point taken on Gerald and the Patriarch facing different situations after all. :-)

That version can't be fully realised without suppressing any and all opposition, including the very existence of adeptitude.

But what if they took the path the Matriarch is supporting? Allow sorcery as long as it's in the service of the Church?

From:

trobadora

I'm not so sure about fewer quakes in the west.

I think there must be, or Damien and the other sorcerors there would have been fried already. They have no warning system, after all.

About Ciani's goals - I'd have said she's embraced a loremaster's neutrality and is just after knowledge for its own sake. But I'm going to pay more attention to that this time through. :-)

But what if they took the path the Matriarch is supporting? Allow sorcery as long as it's in the service of the Church?

That's a very good question. I'd really be interested in that. Of course, you can't build a monolithic society with only one religion, no matter how permissive that religion is, without also ruthlessly oppressing every opposition. But could the Church really achieve its goals while at the same time allowing for pagan worshippers, too? I'm not sure how that would go. Perhaps as a very strong mainstream culture ... *ponders*

From:

fallintosanity.livejournal.com

I'm not so sure about fewer quakes in the west.

Actually, the Patriarch tells us there are fewer and less severe quakes in the west. It's near the end of chapter 5, when he's watching the earthquake; he considers that he should probably have warned Damien about the dangers of earthquakes to sorcerers, as in the westlands, "quakes were less frequent and far less severe." He even implies that the western quakes are so mild that Damien wouldn't know about the fae-surge that comes before eastern quakes.

Jaggonath and the surrounding area may be on or near a fault line - in fact, our mystery stranger notes that the Forest will have to shake soon because the seismic gap there is so big. The Far East continent may be on a similar fault line (perhaps the other side of the plate that is Jaggonath?). Ganji, to the west, may be comfortably in the middle of a plate and therefore not subject to many earthquakes.

From:

carmentalis.livejournal.com

Thanks, I completely missed that (somewhat embarrassing given that I did the summary post...)!

So Ganji has relatively "safe" terrain, as far as earthquakes are concerned, but they have less fae use. Which then makes sense for some other things as well. After all, more seismic/tectonic/volcanic activity means more available fae, so that then means the east has more fae to work with, but they're paying the price for it.

From:

alice_montrose

IMO, Ciani hungers for knowledge. It defines her as a loremaster - knowledge, untainted by notions of good and evil. Impartiality comes with the territory. I bet that, had this all not happened and Gerald had invited her to visit the Forest and see what it's like, she would have gone.

It's not just you - the communication between East and west seems tedious, at best. Maybe it's the monsters infesting those mountains and the strong tsunami that make communication difficult? Or is it because the fae is stronger in the East, and thus is facilitates the use of sorcery? That would explain why Adepts and Sorcerers are more common here.

I've never thought of him as someone to enjoy the approach of potential danger, but here he seems not to mind.

*g* I have the feeling that he wouldn't have minded the presence of another evil, as long as it didn't interfere with his business... or him. Which it did. Tough luck for said evil.

The Patriarch's way may be slower, but I believe that, eventually, the One God would have come into being regardless. However, the business in the Eastern continent, while rotten and all, managed to speed things along. Impression upon the fae by masses of believers would still happen, regardless of the ulterior reasons behind it.

From:

carmentalis.livejournal.com

Gerald inviting Ciani for a stroll through the Forest. Now that's an image! If she liked it enough, I'm sure she'd be offered an apprentice position. She's far more appealing than Amoril, and Gerald does care about aesthetics.

Do we know adepts and sorcerers are more common in the east?

I have the feeling that he wouldn't have minded the presence of another evil, as long as it didn't interfere with his business... or him. Which it did. Tough luck for said evil.

The danger of being evil and then running into someone who's better at being evil than you are...

Impression upon the fae by masses of believers would still happen, regardless of the ulterior reasons behind it.

It would be interesting to know what critical mass is for making the One God real. The Eastern continent, plus the believers on the other two continents, apparently isn't enough.

From:

alice_montrose

You must admit, the image is tempting. Especialy since we know Gerald respects a loremaster's neutrality. I wonder what Ciani could offer in return for a visit of the Forest...

Do we know adepts and sorcerers are more common in the east?

We do not. But considering the increased usage of fae, at least the number of sorcerers must be higher. And I believe Adepts would be drawn to a place where they could Work more, and/or better.

Gerald is used to being considered the supreme evil around (other than the Unnamed, anyway). Having people attempt at the title must be most annoying. *pets him*

Coldfire reread: Black Sun Rising - Chapter 5

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