Coldfire reread: Black Sun Rising - chapters 10 & 11

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

This time we learn that rumours of death can be greatly exaggerated, and we meet a resident deity of pleasure.


Plot Summary

Chapter 10
Senzei collects Damien from the ruins of the fae shoppe and takes him to his home. There they meet Senzei's fiancee Allesha Huyding, and Damien gets a few explanations for what happened. Most importantly, he finds out that Ciani is still alive, but that her knowledge and her adeptitude have been taken from her. He also meets Karril, a demon Senzei Summoned to help Ciani because he has helped her before in a similar situation, when she explored the rakhlands. He explains that Ciani has been attacked by demons which have evolved beyond simple fae constructs after the first time she was captured by them, and that to save her, the demon who has harmed her must be killed.

Chapter 11
Our stranger visits Karril's temple to ask Karril about the fae shoppe and what happened there. Karril does his best to avoid answering the question and only gives in once the stranger has promised to never harm Ciani.



Quotes

• “I figured I could use the shop’s contents as a sacrifice, leave everything in there to burn... there’s power in that kind of destruction, you know that. And if I did it right... whoever was after her, they would think she was dead. And leave her alone.”


• "This isn’t some godsawful accident that just happened to strike her with amnesia. They took her knowledge - they took her Vision! And they left her with just enough to understand what had been lost. No wonder she wanted to die!”


• Damien took a deep breath, reminded himself where he was, and managed to unclench his fists. Nevertheless his heart was pounding, and adrenaline rushed through his system as if he were heading into battle. It’s just reflex for him to consult the faeborn. He doesn’t understand that each such contact serves to reconfirm man’s vulnerability on this planet.
  But where do we draw the line? When do we start controlling this world, instead of just accepting it?
  


• “My domain is pleasure - human pleasure, in all its manifestations. There are few kinds of pain that I can tolerate, fewer still that I can feed on. But apathy is my true nemesis. It is anathema to my being: my negation, my opposite, my destruction. You should understand this when I say that I did what I could for her, but I know little of what happened to her. A few whispered words, a few fleeting images. No more. To delve into her memo¬ries would have meant my dissolution - my death - and it would have done her no good in the long run.”


• “They’ll make a god of me in truth someday - isn’t that the way it works? Rather awesome, to be at the receiving end of it. I keep wondering if I’ll feel it when it happens. Or if it will be a gradual conversion.”
  “Spare me the pagan philosophy.”
  “It’s your philosophy, my friend, not mine.”


• “A lovely, overprotected flower, growing in the mud of a farm.”
  A shadow passed over the demon’s face. “To be hunted?”
  “Curiously, no. She caught me in a rare moment of magnanimity, and I’m afraid I promised her safety.”
  “You’re getting soft.” The demon grinned.
  “My pleasures vary. Although this one, admittedly, was . . . odd.”
  


• The stranger’s eyes widened with sudden understanding. His voice, when it came, was a whisper. Seductive. “Do you really think I’d use you as an accessory to pain? After all these years, don’t you think I know better?”
  “Your standards and mine differ somewhat.”
  “You feed on the Hunt.”
  “I feed on the Hunter. And if his pleasures changed tomorrow, I would celebrate.”


• “As you wish. I will neither harm Ciani of Faraday, nor cause her to be harmed, until this matter is dealt with.”
  “Ever.”
  “All right - ever."

Thoughts

• An interesting little snippet is Karril's statement that Ciani was the first to catalogue his family line. Tarrant has been studying the Iezu as well, and Karril is his closest aquaintance among them. Has Ciani dug deeper?


• Two promises are brought up here that will bring Tarrant no end of trouble. First the one to Narilka is mentioned again, and then he gives his word not to ever harm Ciani. I wonder whether he'd have been so willing to give his word if he had known how this would tie him?


• I love the foreshadowing that is hidden in this chapter. All those essential bits of knowledge that won't even matter until Crown of Shadows.


• Senzei, burning all the books and Worked items. That he, who is so determined to learn more about the fae, has done this makes the sacrifice perhaps even more significant than if someone else had done it. How subjective is sacrifice, I wonder?


• When Damien accepts Karril's help and explanations, he steps onto the slippery slope from the Church's positions to the gray areas between those and what they damn. It's interesting that he doesn't stop for more than a moment to consider what he's doing - if he were less pragmatic, would he have done the same?

Enjoy yourselves! And on Monday we'll continue with Chapter 12.

Comments

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

Perhaps, Ciani was the first to see the 'family' aspect of the Iezu, because Tarrant's view was somewhat clouded by religion and philosophy, despite being friends with a demon?

As for Damien using Karril, he does often observe that he'll use evil as a weapon. While Karril isn't evil, persay, it still counts in much the same way. (And incidentally, I adore Karril so very much, even if he looks like Omid Djalili in my head)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

The statement surprises me a little because Karril obviously knows Tarrant very well, and Tarrant heads to him for information, and even manages to chat. Unless, of course, he's so convinced that demons can't have family that the idea never crossed his mind.

Karril is like that first case of using evil to fight evil. Great preparation for what comes next, in terms of evil utilized as a weapon.

(And Omid Djalili - ooooh yes. You may have ruined my mental picture of Karril forever, but... yes. Can absolutely see that!)

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

Thinking of it as fae-logic, though, Gerald was born in a time where they believed demons were created by the strength of belief and imagination of humanity, so would he immediately think that a thought or belief be part of a familial structure? Yes, he's aware the Iezu are a similar type of demon, but actually viewing them as 'family' rather than 'sub-species'?

Ciana seems much more open-minded about it, possibly because the lore-master thing or because of the way she seems to notice the cultural patterns, as we later see when she gets them a place in Rakh hierarchy.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Makes sense that he'd take a more classifying approach. And he's zoologist/botanist enough to go with the species concept rather than the more romantic family idea.

It's still interesting that Karril seems to feel Ciani knows him best. The poor demon must have become very, very good at evading Tarrant's questions over the centuries. Especially since he knows plenty about Tarrant in turn.

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

It could be the loremaster thing again, for the Ciani and Karril relationship, particularly given that Ciani is known to be neutral in all senses and not biased towards any particular species/shape, where Tarrant is, as the Hunter, the embodiment of Evil. I know which one I'd feel safer talking to about where I came from ;)

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Even if Tarrant likes you, you're still a lab rat to him if he decides to get curious.

[alice_montrose]

There's another reference to Ciani's research on the Iezu, in COS if I'm not mistaken. Gerald (?) laments the loss in the explosion, and the fact Ciani is inaccessible without a trip to the Rakhlands.

At this point, I believe that Gerald's adopted a broader, more generalized view on demon classes than, say, a loremaster who would focus on only one class. I'm sure that, had he had any idea what the Iezu truly were, he would show a sudden interest in that particular class of half-human half-alien creatures. (See ending of COS as supporting argument.) But nobody knew who the Iezu truly were, and given the limited number of adult adepts on Erna it is very plausible that Ciani was the first to take an interest in them.

I really like reading about Gerald and Karril. On my first read of the trilogy, this and Karril's line of "I feed on the Hunter" was the one who made me be sure the stranger was indeed who I thought he was, and that I was probably right about the Hunter and Gerald Tarrant being one and the same. (I wasn't that spoiled by well-meaning fledglings. *cough cough*)

I equally like watching Damien's interaction with Karril progress from that tense first encounter to letting Karril guide him through Hell. On a smaller scale, it's the prime example of the changes Damien undergoes, and his growing interest and reliance in fae-related things. Descent into sorcery. :)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Gerald does say that he has a hundred years' worth of research on the Iezu, though. So he's looked into them, but not even Karril mentioned that little family bit to him. The origins they couldn't have told him anyway, they didn't know that one themselves.

I figured out the bit about the Hunter at roundabout the same time Damien did. *g*

Karril is something like training wheels. Practice getting along with a relatively harmless and nice demon, then work up to getting along with the dangerous and sarcastic ones.

[trobadora]

I always assumed he heard the family thing, but took it as a metaphorical phrase instead of literally.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Making note to pay attention to this when we get to CoS...

[trobadora]

There's some things in WTNF about it. Karril talks about his family, and Gerald corrects him, "you mean your sub-type". Karril just agrees. It didn't seem to me like Gerald was surprised to hear the word family - unlike later, when he's completely gobsmacked when he hears Karril claim he was born instead of created.

[alice_montrose]

Those naughty Iezu, keeping things from Gerald... how DARE they?! Now, non-Gerald will delight in categorizing and sub-categorizing and cross-referencing them, simply because they annoyed non-him in his non-existing previous life!

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

It's always annoying when you think of yourself as an expert in your field, and suddenly find out that you got a basic assumption wrong. If Gerald hadn't had other concerns at the time, I bet he'd have been irritated for years about it. Decades, even. All his neat little categorizing, up in smoke because a stupid demon subspecies turns out not to be properly demonic altogether.

I wonder if Karril didn't simply stop protesting about being a sub-type at some point...

[trobadora]

Oh, I'm sure he very deliberately didn't correct Gerald, ever. It probably amused him that Gerald managed to miss the truth so consistently. *g*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

*grin* And amusement is close enough to pleasure, after all. Besides, Gerald probably felt very happy about correctly classifying his demons.

[alice_montrose]

*g* Well, I had spoilers, and I normally pin the anti-heroes right. Lots of practice and all that. XD

I now get this ridiculous image of a toy Karril, on wheels, being pulled by a toddler Damien. Baby is dressed in one of his mother's shirts (makes it look like a robe) and carrying a toy sword.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I was approaching the books well used to mysterious strangers who then turn out to have issues with the evil guy themselves. Having the mysterious stranger turn out to be the evil guy was a new one.

Thoughts of toddler Damien make me think of how the kiddie ran into that stranger on the way to school, who told him to always pay attention in Church and to learn his sorcery properly...

[alice_montrose]

Having the mysterious stranger turn out to be the evil guy was a new one.

But a pleasing new development, yes?

There was a reason I normally avoid spoiling the books to people, really. Gerald is so much fun to dump in unsuspecting readers, after all.

You know... your plot bunnies are always so much fun. Especially if they somehow get a prod out of my sick and twisted imagination, but shaping them is really all your work. It makes me feel like a proud bunny mother. (Or it might just be the mulled wine.)

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

It’s just reflex for him to consult the faeborn. He doesn’t understand that each such contact serves to reconfirm man’s vulnerability on this planet.

Wow, Damien, how far you came by the end.

I imagine that Karril might've quite deliberately mislead Tarrant concerning the Iezu, because if I were him, I sure as hell wouldn't want him getting hold of the little details that tend to be his keys to understanding. He's the kind of person you never want to encourage to look too hard at something...

Ciani, like most fae-users, seems to lean toward the pagan side of things, while Gerald of course comes from a Church background (you might say he is the Church background). He of course studies the fae with a clinical interest--it's in his teachings, after all. Ciani, on the other hand, while she's presumably very scholarly, lives in a world where the fae and its creatures aren't a separate curiosity to put on a shelf and peer at while you keep yourself divorced from it, but rather something you interact with and even worship on a regular basis. It's far more organic to her, more cultural studies than hard science. So it wouldn't be surprising if she clued into the the familial relationships between "gods" far more quickly than Tarrant did.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

He's the kind of person you never want to encourage to look too hard at something...

And we know what happened when he decided to take a very close look at a Iezu.

With Ciani's interest in the rakh, she may have been more of an anthropologist from the start anyway. Still, Gerald should have picked up something with all his studies. After all, he's got a thorough theological grounding, and the Colonists brought at least one polytheistic religion with them (Hinduism, I believe). So the idea of deities being related can't have been foreign, even though Gerald opted for monotheism for his own choice.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but that's just imagination, right? The gods are related to each other because people believe they are. It doesn't really mean anything, even if they then are literally cousins because the fae says so. It's all just a projected, manifested psychological construct.

Also, I wonder how often he actually hung around Iezu. He and Karril know each other fairly well, but that doesn't mean he necessarily saw Karril more than a couple of times a century, or that Karril was interested in talking shop when they did. And I doubt Tarrant ever hung out much with other Iezu. Though he could have, I suppose. Nothing ever says he didn't.

[trobadora]

You're absolutely right - the family thing only truly means something once it comes out that the Iezu aren't fae constructs at all. That Gerald never suspected that all the talk about family might mean there's something else going on ... well, how could he have, really?

Ciani probably did take a more anthropological approach, and to her there probably wasn't any meaningful difference between believing them to be a family, and them being a family.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

But does it matter whether your gods are related because people believe them to be, or because they started out like it? The result is still the same - you get a group that goes beyond a subspecies and has familial ties. Unless, of course, Gerald was not looking at demon sociology.

So Ciani knew how to ask better questions in the few years she knew Karril, while Gerald got sidetracked and Karril didn't tell him all that much, and happily let him believe a few misconceptions.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

It doesn't look to me like Tarrant believes there is such a thing as demon sociology.

Think of it this way: from a genetics standpoint, it matters a heck of a lot whether people really are related, or whether they only perceive themselves to be related. I think that's how he's coming at it--from an objective hard science standpoint, where he's categorizing them as "types" based on a chemistry-like observation of properties. It may also interest him that some of these demons perceive themselves as having "kinships," but of course (to his mind) that's just because they've homed in on their similar qualities and/or similar methods. It's not as if (he thinks) the fae can create beings that actually have children and pass on their traits.

But maybe Ciani figures, if they think of themselves as family and behave as if they're family, it's as good a place as any to start studying them. In fact, if she's engaging in her study through interviews, that's the natural place to start--how they perceive themselves and their "kin."

[trobadora]

Okay, finally getting here. Sorry for being so late!

I wonder whether he'd have been so willing to give his word if he had known how this would tie him?

Both promises were given very casually, and he clearly didn't anticipate either being any sort of problem for him. After all, not attacking someone? Really not such a hard thing. Unless, you know, a Iezu tries to trick you into it, or you're attacked by the Dark Ones and suddenly can't help turning into Ciani's greatest fear. Not something he could have foreseen - he had no idea there was any real danger abroad, after all. Remember his amusement at the thought of some other darkness moving into Jaggonath? He clearly thought himself superior to it - he had no idea that there could be anything out there that might actually be a threat to him. (I think he talks about that sometime later in the book, about getting complacent from not being challenged in centuries.) So if he'd had any idea what was happening, I'm pretty sure he would never have given his word, never have made himself vulnerable this way.

How subjective is sacrifice, I wonder?

The way I understand it, the more something means to you, the more powerful the sacrifice is. The harder it is to give up, the more it counts. And that makes sense - the fae doesn't do neutral evaluation, after all; it responds to the human mind.

# It's interesting that he doesn't stop for more than a moment to consider what he's doing - if he were less pragmatic, would he have done the same?

If he were less pragmatic, he wouldn't have survived the first book, much less the whole trilogy. *g*

[juonetar.livejournal.com]

I often reread the part where Tarrant meets Karril. The poor Hunter doesn't know what awaits him! He's just keen on to take care of those pesky rivalling demons - and, perhaps, to see Damien:
"There's a priest involved," the demon warned. "A Knight of the Flame. Do you care?"
He shrugged. "His problem, not mine."
"I wonder if he'll appreciate that fact."
Again: an expression that was not quite a smile, a tone that was not quite humor. "It could make it... amusing."

Interesting that Karril brings up Damien's (and Gerald's) Order.

[trobadora]

Yes - it's a bit of infodumping, of course, but this also shows beautifully that Gerald, despite everything, still cares about the Church and the Order, and Karril obviously knows it.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

*grin* If Tarrant had known what that meeting with Karril would mean for his future, he'd definitely have tried a Banishing. Only to then discover that Karril has been humouring him about that all along.

Interesting that Karril brings up Damien's (and Gerald's) Order.

It's something that would matter to Gerald, though, wouldn't it? I think that at this point, Karril is the creature who knows Gerald best on the entire planet.