Coldfire reread: Black Sun Rising - Chapters 13&14

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

We've completed the first book! It's chapters 13 and 14 today - time to collect blessed fae weaponry and pack the bags for the great adventure. And a second mysterious stranger, this time of the female persuasion, joins our characters.


Plot summary

Chapter 13

Damien sees the Patriarch to request a leave of absence and explains the situation with Ciani to him. In response, the Patriarch leads him down into the cathedral's catacombs, where relics of the war against the Forest are stored. The Patriarch lets Damien have a good look, then gives him a bottle of water-bound solar fae in support of his mission.

Chapter 14
Our intrepid travelers check one last time that they've brought everything they wanted to bring, and that they have made all possible preparations. At the same time, a nonhuman stranger picks up on Senzei's Calling and, after hours of deliberation, decides to follow it.



Quotes

• “I swore an oath, your Holiness. To give the Prophet’s dream precedence over my own life. To serve the patterns which he declared were necessary . . . in¬cluding the hierarchy of my Church. If you’re asking me if I understand my duty, that’s my answer. If you mean to use this situation to test me . . .” He felt his hands tighten on the chair’s wooden arms, forced them to relax. Forced the anger out of his voice. It is his right. In some ways, his duty. “Please don’t. I implore you. As a man, and as your servant.”


• “Light was, of course, their primary weapon. Their tool of invasion. There are other things bound into each item here . . . but always light. They thought they could conquer the Forest with it.” The Patriarch reached out to the wall beside him, fingered the edge of a rotting tapestry. “Sometimes, I think, that’s what was responsi¬ble for our defeat. When we play by the rules of the enemy, we inherit his weaknesses.”


• . “Solar fae,” he explained. “Bound well enough to survive even in this place, where no sun ever shines. No single adept could have managed it; only the prayer of thousands has that kind of power. Imagine a time when that kind of unity was possible . . .” His voice trailed off into silence, but Damien continued the thought: When our dream was that close to completion. When consummation of our Purpose was still within sight.


• “They meant to seed the Forest with it. They meant to give it to the ground and let every living thing that took root there suck it up for nourishment. In time, it would have infected the entire ecosystem. In time, it might have defeated even that great Darkness.”


• “Who knows? No one ever returned from that expedition. In the battle that followed, our armies were slaughtered. The tide of the War turned against us.” He looked at the priest, his eyes feline-green in the golden light. “God alone knows what happened to the rest of it. This is all that remains.”


• In the foothills of the Worldsend Mountains, a figure stood very still. She had been still like that for hours since the call had first come to her. Since her sleep had first been disturbed by human sorcery, in a manner un¬precedented among her kind.

Thoughts

• Time to surrender my protests about the Holy War having been fought against the Forest, it seems. :-)


• The Church's history when it comes to fae use is becoming murkier and murkier. They used fae-enforced weapons during the Holy War, and were, at the very least, pragmatically enough to reason that fae is needed to fight against an enemy wielding that power. From what the Church still has stored and from what the Patriarch says, they relied on sorcery to a degree that is far larger than what even the Western Autarchy allows at present time. But after their defeat, the official line seems to have become "we lost because we used the tools of the enemy".


• The idea of using fae-containing water to bring down the Forest - Erna's variation of salting enemy land? And while we're at it, just why is the Patriarch giving something like the Fire to Damien? Shouldn't this be absolutely anathema to him?


• I'm having difficulties to decide how much time has passed since Damien's arrival in Jaggonath. A few days, a week, a month, more than that? What puzzles me is that we get the first Tarrant chapter almost immediately after Damien's arrival chapter, and he's still in the city when Ciani is attacked. Would he have left the Forest for so long?


• I wish we knew more about Damien's background. Just how much time has he spent on the road? And what, exactly, is his role in the Western Autarchy? We're getting hints again, but I'm missing actual answers.


• Was Hesseth the only rakh to respond to Senzei's Calling in any way? And if so, why her?

You know what comes now - enjoy yourselves! And on Monday we'll look back at book 1 of BSR, so there's no reading homework for you this time. ;-)

Comments

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

Regarding Damien's duration in Jaggonath, he's been there at least long enough to put on weight, because it's mentioned at the clothes fitting that he's bulked up thanks to having good foor and staying in one place for a while ;)

Isn't the Gerald/Narilka scene potentially a few weeks before he actually goes to the city, though? So he almost fed, and then felt the disturbances in the Fae later and goes to harrass Karril then?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

The bulking up is one of the things that makes me feel like he's been around for a while. :-)

Narilka is already working at the goldsmith where she'll be in CoS, so that puts her into Jaggonath. And I have trouble picturing Gerald staying in town for weeks at a time. And the chapter comes after Damien's meeting with the Patriarch, in the book. If there were more chronological jumps, I'd have no trouble thinking that it happened weeks earlier, but as it is, it seems a bit odd.

[trobadora]

Time to surrender my protests about the Holy War having been fought against the Forest, it seems. :-)

Told you so. :-)

The Church's history when it comes to fae use is becoming murkier and murkier.

Yes, I've noticed that too. You have an initial stance against sorcery in Gerald's time, then suddenly a lot of fae usage in the Holy War, and then again a strong rejection of sorcery. Not that that's not perfectly possible, but I'd really like to know more about what brought about these changes! As you say, the turn against the fae after the Holy War makes some sense as a reaction to their defeat, but how did they come from condemning Gerald to hell for his sorcery to the really heavy reliance on the fae in the war agains the Forest?! There's some missing link there ...


And while we're at it, just why is the Patriarch giving something like the Fire to Damien? Shouldn't this be absolutely anathema to him?

I'm really not sure about that one.

I'm having difficulties to decide how much time has passed since Damien's arrival in Jaggonath.

I'm pretty sure it must have been weeks if not months. He's had time to put on weight, at least, and by the end he's talking about his acquaintance with Ciani as if it's lasted for quite a while. ("She had told him once ..." and similar things.) You're right, the Gerald chapters don't align with that - the Narilka chapter must take place immediately before the Karril chapter, from the internal references. I can only assume the chapters aren't all in chronological order, or it makes no sense. *sighs* Maybe Friedman simply didn't want to wait too long until she brought Gerald in again.

I wish we knew more about Damien's background. Just how much time has he spent on the road? And what, exactly, is his role in the Western Autarchy? We're getting hints again, but I'm missing actual answers.

It's all very confusing, yes. Add to that the fact that the Western Autarchy only recently started looking into using sorcery again, yet Damien was already studying sorcery as an adolescent - and yet he later also talks about turning to the Church very early. It doesn't quite come together for me yet. Maybe the Western Autarchy started their experiments with sorcery earlier than we know - after all our info comes from the Patriarch of the Eastern Autarchy, and they might not have told him everything. *reaches*

Was Hesseth the only rakh to respond to Senzei's Calling in any way? And if so, why her?

There can't have been too many khrast in the human lands, and it took Hesseth quite a while to decide. Statistics?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I'm still having serious doubts about whether the Church version of the Holy war is one Gerald would agree with, however...

how did they come from condemning Gerald to hell for his sorcery to the really heavy reliance on the fae in the war agains the Forest?!

That's exactly it. If they'd stayed true to their Prophet-damning policy of "sorcery is evil, must not use it, it's pagan stuff that goes against Church teachings" then they should not have fought evil with evil measures. Never mind that Gerald preached it - they are undermining their own policies. Maybe afterwards the defeat was seen as divine punishment for using the tools of evil, but it's an odd extreme to use the fae so much.

I'd also like to know why at least the Eastern Autarchy is sitting on a huge arsenal of fae weaponry since five centuries.

Add to that the fact that the Western Autarchy only recently started looking into using sorcery again, yet Damien was already studying sorcery as an adolescent - and yet he later also talks about turning to the Church very early.

It's all a bit... off. His own students here are barely teens, so it may be safe to assume he started at a similar age, perhaps a bit later given that he calls it a rotten age to start. Still... odd. And aside from learning sorcery (and very well at that), he's had time to achieve a relatively high Church position, become a member of an important order, and spend a lot of time on the road. All that and he's just in his early thirties. Just who is this guy?

Statistics?

Point taken.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

And aside from learning sorcery (and very well at that), he's had time to achieve a relatively high Church position, become a member of an important order, and spend a lot of time on the road. All that and he's just in his early thirties. Just who is this guy?

Wow. I'd never quite realized how much we never really know about Damien.

[trobadora]

He's pretty much a mystery, isn't he, along with everything about the Western Autarchy. (That part of the world is driving me crazy with how little we know about it!)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

It's noticeable especially when you compare him to Gerald. We know a lot more about his past than we ever do about Damien's. And even though Damien never reached heights as lofty as Prophethood (that we know about), it's a marked difference.

[trobadora]

I take prettyarbitrary's point about the solar fae being bound by faith, but thinking about it - they had sorceror-priests, for Christ's sake. WTF?!

If you can manage to reconcile that somehow, the weapons cache holy relics probably make sense too. *g*

Just who is this guy?

The more I think about it, the more confusing it gets. And as for the sorcery, he must have learned pretty early. At the very least, he's not acting like someone who's only recently acquired the knowledge - he doesn't have to think about it; sorcery is a reflex to him.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

The sorceror-priests make it all a bit tricky. It would be easier if people like Damien and his order were sitting on bunkers full of fae-powered weaponry, but that the Patriarch ended up with it, while Damien had no idea this kind of cache existed...

And as for the sorcery, he must have learned pretty early.

Definitely. They would hardly send him to teach if he were a beginner at it. And he's very good, at least in some areas. Gerald, with just a few years less of practice but with an adept's ability, had no idea how to fix something as complicated as a heart, but Damien simply goes about it. Add a good deal of medical knowledge to his abilities... small wonder he's never had any time for relationships.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I don't know if the Patriarch quite counts the solar fae as "sorcery," per se. It's perhaps a technical point, but from his description it wasn't bound by the traditional methods of sorcery, but by pure faith. To him, this seems to make a huge difference, and maybe by the tenets of their faith--where humanity is meant to deal with the fae by sharing a vision rather than through sorcery and superstition--it's an important distinction.

I think that by the time of the Forest, people understood the fae well enough to understand that the Forest was based on dark fae, and solar fae could harm or cleanse it. More of an exorcism than a salting, I'd say.

And I always had the impression that the Patriarch wasn't talking about using the solar fae, but about trying to conquer the Forest.

Hesseth explains much later that she was one of a small number of her people who gave up much to go exploring outside the Canopy, in order to learn more about humans and the greater part of Erna. This, she says, is why she was there. It's also why she can speak...um, whatever the human language is called.

[trobadora]

That's an excellent point, that he doesn't look at it as sorcery! It does make sense with the solar fae, at least, though maybe not with every tool in their arsenal.

whatever the human language is called.

English, according to Chapter 1. :D

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

To him, this seems to make a huge difference, and maybe by the tenets of their faith--where humanity is meant to deal with the fae by sharing a vision rather than through sorcery and superstition--it's an important distinction.

Ah, religion and semantics. One of the OTPs in this world. There's faith and there's faith - first the one in the Church, which binds the fae in a roundabout way, and then the kind of faith that binds the fae directly. It makes sense when it comes to passively influencing the fae, but I am not sure about active influence.

I think that by the time of the Forest, people understood the fae well enough to understand that the Forest was based on dark fae, and solar fae could harm or cleanse it.

It seems they're walking a very narrow line. Good fae versus bad fae, and the central Church belief that the fae has to be harnessed to a purpose and controlled completely through mass faith. And at the same time the condemnation of outright fae use. Would sorcery involving solar fae be more acceptable than that using earth fae?

And I always had the impression that the Patriarch wasn't talking about using the solar fae, but about trying to conquer the Forest.

You mean about the Holy War back then, or about giving Damien the Fire?

As for Hesseth... I agree, odds would have been widely against them reaching a second rakh outside the canopy, at least on this continent. And on the Far Eastern continent, the call might have been heard, but it's not like they could have come over to check it out.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

So the Patriarch is against sorcery, but all for a single priest-knight crusading off into the wilderness on behalf of a random lady in distress. How very medieval. :)

As for the solar fae, remember: the Church never declared that the fae was automatically evil. They understood that it was a natural phenomenon. I'm pretty sure I remember Gerald later explaining to Damien that way back when, the Church declared that wielding sorcery outside the causes of church and king was anathema (and this was King Gannon's declaration, if I remember, not directly the Church's). Which of course meant that adepts were automatically targeted, because they're pretty much incapable of not Working. And once that was done, the common imagination began to shift to equate excommunication due to practice of freelance sorcery with damnation.

But it sounds like nobody particularly minded Working for god and country until after the Holy War, which from the sounds of it was such a massive, embarrassing devastation that everybody wanted nothing to do with any of its causes or tools after the fact.

As for who the Holy War was against, check out the Patriarch's sentence again: “Who knows? No one ever returned from that expedition. In the battle that followed, our armies were slaughtered. The tide of the War turned against us.”

So there was an expedition to the Forest, and then a massive battle after that, and then the war turned against them--implying that the War had been ongoing before that. I think the Holy War was probably against any of the faeborn the Church could find. At the height of it, the Church's best probably decided to take on the Forest, which after all was pretty much the heart of darkness...and they failed. Which left the Church bereft of its finest warriors, with morale and confidence broken (which doesn't do a lot of good when your fae-binding is based on faith), and then the forces they were fighting against took the upper hand.

My theory, anyway. It seems like toward the end, I can remember that more details come up with Andrys, but I can't remember them and I don't want to skip ahead.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

So the Patriarch is against sorcery, but all for a single priest-knight crusading off into the wilderness on behalf of a random lady in distress. How very medieval. :)

Or incredibly clever. After all, if an entire expedition armed with solar fae got eaten by the Forest, who knows what might happen to a single knight with some civilians in tow? It would be soooo sad if something happened to Reverend Vryce. I'm sure the condolence letter to the Matriarch would have been absolutely sincere.

The Holy War makes more sense to me the way you explain it. If it wasn't purely against the Forest, but the Forest was simply the moment when they bit off more than they could chew, it sounds reasonable. It would also explain why the Western Autarchy isn't viewing the Forest as the ultimate evil. To them it's a battleground of many, to the Easterners it's the reason why they still have demons around.

The Andrys chapters are more and more turning out to be the ones with a lot of background info. It's going to be interesting to re-read them.

Random Thoughts

[kennahijja.livejournal.com]

Using the fae to fight the fae... I got the impression that solar fae was somehow of a different quality - as in, the ultimate antithesis to night, and hence perhaps more in keeping with the Church's perception of acceptable?

Hesseth... I assumed that she picked up the calling because she was already travelling outside the rakhlands... because otherwise, would she have been able to make the trip so quickly?

Re: Random Thoughts

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

It depends on the Church's definition of fae. The technical/scientific one probably places solar fae with all the other kinds of fae, but once it's assigned some kind of spritiual attributes, that might change things. It still feels odd to me that they'd utilize something that is called fae - words are important in that kind of context.

[alice_montrose]

My theory about the Holy War and using the fae for Church purposes pretty much follows prettyarbitrary's, so I won't repeat that, except perhaps to emphasise that Gannon "outlawed private sorcery", and that fae bound by faith of the masses of followers was by no means private. Therefore, the Church's ban on using the fae as a tool must have happened after the war, and in the east especially since they were closer to the Forest.

(I still wish we knew what kind of creatures the Forest unleashed upon those poor soldiers, though. It wouldn't have been too long after Gerald took over the place and began creating his safe haven... and Gerald would have become what those people feared most.)

just why is the Patriarch giving something like the Fire to Damien? Shouldn't this be absolutely anathema to him?

Perhaps because, while he had it, it was just another relic of the past. Whereas Damien would have no issues using it. And perhaps the Patriarch gave it to Damien as a symbol and a reminder of what their faith is all about. After all, Jaxom doesn't seem to actually be as heartless as he appears.

I'm having difficulties to decide how much time has passed since Damien's arrival in Jaggonath.

I'm thinking about a month, maybe a month and a few weeks. The chapter arrangement is a bit deceiving; a rough timeline would go like this:

- prologue: 900+ years ago
- chapters 1-2: Damien's arrival (one day)
- chapters 3-4: Narilka; evil creatures (probably happening at the same time)
- chapters 5-6: shopping, ship chapter (likely takes place a week, two most after that)
- chapter 7: Patriarch flashback
- chapters 8-14: explosion, evil creatures, Senzei's home, Karril and Gerald, Church library, Patriarch and travel plans (a week at most)

So what we must determine is 1) the time difference between Damien's arrival and Narilka's chapter, and 2) how long a trip between humanlands and rakhlands will take. It can't be more than a few weeks, but the ship chapter is deceptive because there are months mentioned in it. Bad chapter!

IMO, Damien can't have been in Jagonnath more than a month or two. Enough to get settled, and he made his interest in Ciani known pretty soon after his arrival. And it's not entirely inaccurate to say Gerald has been around for at least two weeks; he probably needed to resume his "search for beauty" after being uncharacteristically generous with Narilka.

I wish we knew more about Damien's background. Just how much time has he spent on the road? And what, exactly, is his role in the Western Autarchy? We're getting hints again, but I'm missing actual answers.

Damien's past is a mystery, which is part of his charm I suppose. we get lots of scattered information about Gerald's past, but that's in order to make us like him in spite of him being "evil". Damien, on the other hand, is created as a "good" character, so we don't get much. me, I think he occupies one of the highest positions in the Order, and it's plain he has the Matriarch's ear.

Was Hesseth the only rakh to respond to Senzei's Calling in any way? And if so, why her?

Her, because she is a khrast and thus one of the few rakh to be willing to interact with humans. She was probably the closest interested rakh? Wasn't she already in the human lands? I can't remember, but I believe this is explained later on.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't the Forest have created whatever the soldiers feared most? I doubt Gerald got around to his genetic experiments already by that time.

After all, Jaxom doesn't seem to actually be as heartless as he appears.

Still, handing Damien something that is currently against Church policy? That's like the Pope starting to hand out condoms. And in Damien's case, it's not for a Church reason, but it is private, so that's been banned since Gerald's time.

Wouldn't Gerald take any additional beauties back to the Forest, though?

I think he occupies one of the highest positions in the Order, and it's plain he has the Matriarch's ear.

Which is quite an achievement at his age. But it also explains why Gerald gives him so much respect. In this, they're quite similar, and who knows where Damien might have ended up if he'd had Gerald's opportunities, or vice versa.

She was probably the closest interested rakh? Wasn't she already in the human lands? I can't remember, but I believe this is explained later on.

I hope it is. Those rakh chapters are still a bit off in the future...