Coldfire reread: BSR Book 2

[trobadora]

We're through the second book of BSR now! So it's time to look back on "Night's Keep".

Gerald and Damien have met and joined forces now. And the relationship that is at the heart of the trilogy has finally started developing.

Here are our discussion posts for "Night's Keep":

Chapter 15
Chapters 16-18
Chapters 19 & 20
Chapter 21
Chapters 22 & 23
Chapter 24
Chapters 25-27

Generally when I reread the trilogy I skip the first book and start with this, because the Gerald/Damien relationship is what I most often reread for. I suspect a lot of people do the same, but I certainly appreciated the first book more the second time through. Rereading it all now, knowing what we know about the trilogy as a whole - is the second book of BSR "better" than the previous one? More interesting? More engaging? Or is it just that it caters more to the slashy interest?

Which brings me to my second question: A lot of people get Coldfire recced to them as "slashy" books, and this is the part where that really begins coming true. (We all know it's barely started here, of course. *g*) Were you expecting slashiness when you read it the first time? And if you weren't - did you see it coming, the way the rest of the trilogy focuses on the relationship between these two, or did that come as a surprise?

And to get back to the really important part ;-) - how do you read these early encounters between Damien and Gerald? Jostling for power? for control? What's the dominant element - hatred, distrust, necessary evil? Instant attraction? ;-) I'm really curious.

And now that we've had something about Gerald's identity and past, it's time to revisit our early discussions about the Church. Gerald's mortal identity was written out of the Church's history quite thoroughly, so that even though Damien knew the Prophet and the Neocount were one and the same, the name "Gerald Tarrant" didn't ring any sort of bell with him even after he knew the Neocount was the Hunter. How much more revisionist history do you think there is in what Damien and others know (or think they know) about the origins of the Church? How much do we really know about Gerald's mortal years, and his falling out with Gannon and the Church? What exactly was his role - how did he do it all, what sort of organisation was the Church at that time? Any thoughts?

And how much of what Damien believes about the Church is true? There's one point where he claims that no adept has made peace with his faith since the Prophet's time - but we know about the Patriarch, and there may have been others. Is he buying into propaganda here?

Yes, I admit it, the complexities of the Church and its history still fascinate me. *g* So let me know what you think!

On Thursday, we'll be continuing with chapter 28.

Comments

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

Were you expecting slashiness when you read it the first time? And if you weren't - did you see it coming, the way the rest of the trilogy focuses on the relationship between these two, or did that come as a surprise?
And to get back to the really important part ;-) - how do you read these early encounters between Damien and Gerald? Jostling for power? for control? What's the dominant element - hatred, distrust, necessary evil? Instant attraction? ;-) I'm really curious.

I can't remember who recced the novels to me. etrangere maybe. But they were recced as dark fantasy with good main characters, the slash was rather secondary. The early encounters between Damien and Gerald read like instant magnetic poles meeting, they're intrigued by one another but they also hate the main characteristics of each other. Respect comes later between these two.

[trobadora]

I was pimped into Coldfire by allaire and mareen, and it was all about the slashiness. When I rec it, I tend to stress the worldbuilding a lot because I find it incredibly impressive. But most people are easier to lure into a new fandom if you wave the slash under their nose. *g*

Agreed about the magnetic poles - that's a very good image for those two! :-)

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

The world building is impressive considering its simplicity. Proof that those elaborate societies writers love to create in their novels aren't really necessary if the writer's craft is strong and Friedman certainly knows how to write.

[trobadora]

Once again, proof that less is more. *g*

[ariss-tenoh.livejournal.com]

Is that Allaire Mikhail who has a recs site? *checks*

[trobadora]

Yes, that's her. She basically waved the books under my nose until I couldn't resist any more. *g*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I usually go from the prologue straight to this chapter. The first book is more interesting to me after our discussions, but it still lacks the lure the second book has. Which is the instant bickering and snark.

alice_montrose recced the trilogy to me ages ago. I didn't take it up then, and kind of came back to it at a later point with no actual expectations. The prologue grabbed me enough to trudge through book 1, and then there was book 2 and my eyes were growing wider and wider. *g* I couldn't believe I'd missed out on this snarky slashiness and that jostling for power.

Church history is a tricky thing (and not just because of all the gaps). From what we've heard so far, I get the impression that the Church was just one religion of many until Gerald came along and saw the potential. It may have grown simply because of his interest in it and because of his growing importance. I expect there was plenty of historical revision going on in those early years - when you have the influence to do it, it's a tempting thing. They cleaned up the problem with the Prophet, so I am sure they had some other issues to deal with. Possibly from pre-Gerald times.

For Damien I think it's a division between Church and Faith. He knows that the Church has its flaws and that not everything can be taken at face value. But he believes in what they're doing, with heart and soul. The bit about the adepts... I'd think that any adepts would be wary of a religion that condemns them. They'd know enough about the fae to realize that believing in this religion is a straight ticket to a very unpleasant afterlife. The Patriarch... well, he didn't know, did he? I'm curious where he ends up, though.

[trobadora]

Yes, I agree about the Church being a minor religion first - I wonder how the believers of that faith reacted to Gerald's wholesale reimagining!

The bit about the adepts... I'd think that any adepts would be wary of a religion that condemns them.

Well, yes, obviously, but that's never stopped anyone before. *g* People manage to believe in any number of contradictory and self-damaging things in our world, after all. So I'm quite sure there must have been more adepts in the Church - though they'd have had to be very careful about not giving themselves away, I expect.

I'm curious where he ends up, though.

Not sure what you mean by that?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I wonder how the believers of that faith reacted to Gerald's wholesale reimagining!

How would you react when you get a handsome young man with a vision and he tells you to come along for the ride? I suspect his following was quite enthusiastic from the start. :-)

So I'm quite sure there must have been more adepts in the Church - though they'd have had to be very careful about not giving themselves away, I expect.

They'd also have to believe very, very firmly that they don't qualify for a trip to Hell. Which is also what I meant abotu the Patriarch - I wonder what happens to adepts like him in the end. He wasn't consciously Working, at least not until the end. Does that send him to hell, the way the Church intends it?

[trobadora]

They'd also have to believe very, very firmly that they don't qualify for a trip to Hell.

Why? Maybe they believe they deserve it, for being what they are. Maybe they believe it's the price they have to pay for making a better world. It doesn't have to be logical or reasonable. *g*

But that's a very good question about the Patriarch. Would people's faith in him in particular outweigh the general belief that adepts go to hell? What does he himself believe, once he admits to himself what he is? Hmmm.

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

I seem to be the only person in fandom who doesn't read them for the slash ;) I'll agree that on the whole, book 1 isn't whereI like to start, because while scene setting is all well and good, once you've read it, you don't really need to do it again.

Plus, I'm impatient and like adventures, once we get passed initial encounters. I like to see the developing relationships, which is what Friedman does so beautifully, the gradual unfolding of what will become a deep and powerful relationship.

Plus, I love the fact it's so clearly set up and if you know where the books lead, watching the change is just fantastic, especially on re-reads, when you see something that was a big step forward that you hadn't noticed before :)

[trobadora]

I don't just read it for the slash, although that's how I got into it in the first place. *g* And actually, I like the first part of BSR a lot better now than I did at first - I enjoy rereading it a great deal more, even though it doesn't give me the same emotional kick as the Damien/Gerald interactions.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

When I first read these books, I didn't even know slash existed. I picked them up because they looked like interesting fantasy novels and that's my favorite genre.

After I finished them, I didn't know slash had a name, but I knew I wanted more. :D I was a well-behaved (aka clueless) 15-year-old, I think, when I read the first book. I remember reading the initial exchange about the fae-link with wide, disbelieving eyes and thinking to myself, "This is awfully, um, sexy." And from there it sort of snowballed, of course.

When I reread, I go all the way through, but admittedly I tend to skim the first book. I love so much about these books. I love how much ammo Friedman gives you to think about them. But of course the big draw is the relationship between Gerald and Damien. The external plot is nothing new: go on a quest, save the girl, discover the bad guy, figure out how to kill him, save the world. But the internal plot--the tension between Damien and Tarrant and how they change each other--that's the main event.

It's also why the big letdown. It's more than feeling jilted because the author did not give in to her readers' fannish desires. At the end, the fairly humdrum external plot seems to win out, when you've spent most of the series with the expectation that it's the internal plot that matters. This is why I'm in for the reread all the way through: I'm hoping to find an answer to the thing that's bugged me about the ending ever since I first read it.

[trobadora]

I remember reading the initial exchange about the fae-link with wide, disbelieving eyes and thinking to myself, "This is awfully, um, sexy."

Hee! It is, isn't it? :D (I can't wait till we get to that bit!)

And of course I absolutely agree that the internal plot is the main draw of the books, and I wonder if one of the reasons I'm unhappy with the ending (besides the many, many we've already discussed) is that the internal and external plots are suddenly divorced from each other there. Hmmm ...

This is why I'm in for the reread all the way through: I'm hoping to find an answer to the thing that's bugged me about the ending ever since I first read it.

Let us know what you find out, all right? I'm very curious what you come up with.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

The first thing that strikes me about Damien and Tarrant's relationship is the power struggle. Damien's first reaction of jealousy is...I don't know if it's telling, but it's at least amusing, in light of some solid lit-crit scholarship on male homoerotic/homosocial engagement happening through the pretext of a woman (especially in repressed or forbidding societies, though I have no idea whether the Ernan colonists fall into that camp).

Anyway, the jockeying for power between the two of them is obvious (it's actually explicitly pointed out by the demons they're chasing a little while later: "The priest dominates. The sorcerer endures."), but coming right on the heels of the alpha-male hackle-raising, practically in the same line, we get Damien's immediate fascination with the other man. He is, truth to tell, almost as reluctant to let someone so fae-touched walk away as Ciani is.

By the time we hit the Forest and find out who Tarrant really is, we know Damien's screwed. There's no way he can ever let this guy go; he's got no option except hate or attraction, because Tarrant is everything Damien has ever been interested in, wrapped up in one compulsively tidy, evil little package. Finding out what makes Tarrant tick would be like finding The Secret Of The Universe for Reverend Vryce--the mysteries of evil and good and faith all laid out before him.

Now, what does Gerald see in Damien? I'm honestly not sure. It's possible that he finds nothing at all to interest him there, but that doesn't feel quite right, does it? He notes a few qualities he respects in the priest early on--Damien's apparent recognition of him as the Hunter after a single meeting; his frankly ridiculous levels of courage; his intelligence and ability to view things without immediately judging them. But Tarrant's completely able to respect someone and still not want anything to do with them.

I do kind of get the impression--through what Ciani says and the Hunter's own musings--that even though he wants nothing to do with it on most levels, there's still a small part of him that remains drawn to humanity. Heck, from what he says, Tarrant does more socializing in the first part of this book than he has in the last couple of centuries put together. It's not just Damien; he indulges himself with Narilka first, and then Ciani catches his interest. He finds Damien more interesting after he learns he's a priest--can't resist poking him over the dead boy, and in fact at that point goes out of his way to test Damien and learn about him. Which is interesting, considering at that point he's not sure he even cares what these people will do beyond the sunrise.

But I think if I had to point to anything, it'd be Damien's granite-like faith. The man just. doesn't. waver. To Tarrant, it's got to be like staring at an incarnation of his religion. Or maybe it's simpler than that. Maybe it's the fascination of the intellectual with that which he can't quantify.

[trobadora]

There's no way he can ever let this guy go; he's got no option except hate or attraction, because Tarrant is everything Damien has ever been interested in, wrapped up in one compulsively tidy, evil little package.

Yes. That. Exactly.

What Gerald sees in Damien? Yes, I would say, someone who's living proof of his faith - someone who manages to believe wholeheartedly without becoming a bigot, someone who's a pragmatist at heart. Someone who's closer than most to Gerald's original project, whether he knows it or not. I think that's one reason Gerald can't quite let him go - the Church is his life's work, after all.

(I'm still not sold on the idea that Gerald thinks Damien recognised him as the Hunter, but I haven't had time to really chase that down. I'll get back to it, though, promise!)

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not entirely sold on it, myself, but anyway Gerald apparently thought Damien figured something out that got him labeled as "smart and perceptive." :)

Something that occurred to me on the way to work this morning: Do you think Gerald might be jealous of Damien? I always thought that it must be like salt in the wound for Tarrant: Damien has priesthood and sorcery and faith and wears them all comfortably, and he can participate in his Church in a living way that's denied Gerald. It's like he has just enough of everything, whereas Gerald screwed himself by being too gifted.

[trobadora]

Jealous? Hmmm. I don't know - I certainly never got the impression he resented Damien for that. And as for this:

whereas Gerald screwed himself by being too gifted.

Gerald doesn't do so well with moderation. *g* And I don't think he'd be jealous of someone who was capable of it. *ponders*

[jcalanthe]

The part that I think might mean that Gerald thinks Damien recognized him as the hunter is this (p181 in my edition, which is Daw 1991):

"You killed that boy. In Briand."

"Yes. I told you why."

"And I believed it -- at the time." It was impossible to tell from the man's expression whether he would buy a bluff or see right through it. He decided to chance it. "I didn't know then what I do now."

"Ah." Tarrant's eyes were fixed on him: piercing through his worldly image, weighing his soul. "I did underestimate you," he said at last. "My apologies. It won't happen again."

I re-read that section several times, and I'm still not sure what Tarrant thinks Damien knows now, but one interpretation could be that Damien figured out he's the Hunter. Or maybe that he's a servant of the Hunter? What do you think?

[trobadora]

Hm. It could be interpreted that way, I guess. How I understood it was that Damien had figured out Tarrant wasn't benevolent. Possibly that he's not human. But it'd be quite a jump to go from there to Hunter, so I'm still not sure why Tarrant would assume that.

I'm still planning on going through that chapter again, just haven't had the time yet, sorry!

[niciasus.livejournal.com]

It's been such a long time, but I think rivkat recommended the books to me. Initially, my main interest was the slash, however, I recalled becoming enthralled with the world building and fascinated with the ideal of Gerald as the Prophet turning evil as sought out his immortality.

I am doing myself an injustice by not re-reading the first book. It was the second book - When True Night Falls - that really got me hooked.

[trobadora]

Yes, same here - the slash was first, but the books are so amazing, everything else won me over very quickly.

I was hooked the first time Damien and Gerald met. There was no going back from there. *g*

(And you know you can join in the chapter discussions without rereading, right?)

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

I saw melina123 write rhapsodically about the books, but it was never a direct pimping. However, her taste and mine often coincide, so when she posted about the re-read, I bought the first book -- it wasn't too many chapters in before I ordered 2 and 3. I didn't read for slash, though was tickled to see it when it appeared. Though I also was sad that the Ciani we first meet went AWOL for most of the rest of the books. I really liked that confidant, competent, self-assured woman, delighted by the world and her place in it, curious, playful. What kind of book might it have been with the Gerald/Damien dyanmic AND a fully online Ciani? Of course, there would need to be a different reason for the partnership, but if there were... wouldn't that be interesting? THREE strong personalities, each different, interacting?

[trobadora]

I absolutely agree about Ciani - it's such a shame we never got to see very much of her when she was well. In a way the second book does better with Hesseth - she's fully there, a strong realised character all the way through - but I'm still sad she died.

[jcalanthe]

Yea, that's the part I like least about Black Sun Rising, that we get this totally awesome female character who is immediately mentally eviscerated. I'm finding it interesting in re-read to see how even with that, she grows and strengthens as a character over their journey, but I'd trade that for a fully-there Ciani any day. You're right that this change would radically affect the plotline, but the adventures of Gerald, Damien, and undamaged!Ciani would be awesome. I suppose that's why we have fanfic. :)

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

Hi there, wow I havnt been on lj for ages but this discussion thing is really interesting (am reading all the weeks ive missed!) I hope no one minds, I hav friended some of the peeps who seem most active, its so cool to know about other peeps liking coldfire! :)

[trobadora]

Welcome aboard. :-) And don't hesitate to comment on older posts - they're always open!