Coldfire re-read: Black Sun Rising - chapter 38

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Welcome to tonight's discussion, those of you who aren't currently more focused on turkeys! ;-)

A reminder - if there's something from past discussions you want to talk about, feel free to do so! Either comment in the original post (which trobadora and I, and doubtlessly a few others) are still tracking. Or just comment on the most recent post - no worries whether the topic you want to talk about is central here. We've still got ongoing discussions in the last two posts (chapter 34 and chapters 35-38) as well, so it's not too late if you've just read those chapters.


Plot Summary
Damien, Ciani and Hesseth spend their time traveling, freezing and, in Damien's case, attempting to avoid missing Tarrant. They are under attack again, once by redirected bad weather, then by something that targets their mounts and drives a xandu to escape. When they track the animal down, they discover a) a hunting pit and b) the owners of said pit, who turn out to be Hesseth's long-lost relatives, aptly named the Lost Ones. Despite the obvious fork in evolution, Hesseth manages to get some answers from them, and Damien ends up having to retrieve Tarrant's sword, which has been having the time of its life eating rakh souls while waiting for its owner to come back and pick it up. After some macho posturing by Damien and a Lost one, everyone ends up striking a deal to find a way and kill the Master of Lema and the soul-sucking demons.



Quotes

• Whatever worth the man had once possessed had become buried beneath so many centuries of corruption and cruelty that the resulting creature was more demon than man, and hardly a suitable subject for admiration. Especially for one of Damien’s calling.
  But he was of my calling, too. A founder of my faith. How do you reconcile those two identities?


• The corner of her mouth twisted upward in a slight smile. “They are rakh,” she pointed out. “If they have anything similar to a Worker, it will be a female. Our men generally lack the . . . time for such pursuits.”


• There was no more intimate link in the world than that. A true apprenticeship would color one’s development for the rest of one’s life - long after the training period itself ended. Even if her memory was returned to her now, all her Workings would bear the Hunter’s mark. His taint.
  The woman I loved will never come back now. Even if her memories are restored to her, she’ll be . . . different. Darker. That taint will always be there.


• He envied his ancestors, whose knowledge-base had encompassed an entire planet with thousands of diverse cultures; how much easier this would have been for them, with so many different exam¬ples of primitive behavior to draw on!


• Yes, Damien thought. He noted the rope still wrapped about its quillons, which they had used to drag it here. And the only reason it didn’t kill me just now is my link to Tarrant. The sword knows its own.
  “It belongs to my blood-kin,” he repeated.

Thoughts

• Even with their hostility in the last chapters, Damien is certainly having a hard time when it comes to avoiding thoughts of Tarrant. Or not missing him to help figuure something out. Or worrying. Or calling him blood-kin.


• They appear to have dealt quite thoroughly with Senzei's death. Not one thought spared for him, even though he's not been dead all that long and he could be of use here.


• So the rakh able to Work tend to be female. For lack of interest on the side of the men, as Hesseth puts it. Do you think that echoes in humans in some way as well?


• Damien's thought on the humans of Erna lacking cultural diversity is interesting. How different would the settlers have been? We get some thoughts on different ideas of mythology in the WTNF prologue, but when there are only a few thousand (or maybe less) people, how many cultures can there be, and can they remain separate? Or would they become a conglomerate very quickly?


• Tarran't sword and its relationship to Damien tends to amuse me, especially later in WTNF. It's such a typical fantasy plot device to have a special weapon of some sort, and this one here is almost sentient. At the very least, it's picked up on the mind link, which is somewhat surprising given that right now it's a one-sided affair and Damien hasn't completed it yet. How much of Tarrant is in Damien already?

On Monday we continue with chapters 39 and 40 - the simulacra reach the end of their useful life, and Damien has to figure out whether he wants to be rid of Tarrant or not.

Comments

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

"How much of Tarrant is in Damien already?"

Not enough? Sorry, my slash goggles are showing. *grin*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

*snort*

And that when I am always so careful not to sound slashily biased in my commentry!

(When you think of it, so far only Tarrant has been on the receiving end. Damien's still on top of things. ;-)

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

In a physical sense (on the receiving end) yes... but as you say, with that mind link, what of Tarrant is in Damien that the sword knows its own? Oh, the symbolism *gestures dramatically*. The great... phallic... thing, claims Damien as its own.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

You have no idea how difficult it was to resist going into sword-shape symbolism for the post *g* At least now I can blame someone else for it.

Isn't it interesting how Damien hops to rescue the sword without any hesitation? And all that dominance posturing with the male rakh is almost second thought. Can't risk bringing Tarrant back and not having the sword! That's symbolic castration, and I can't imagine the Hunter would take that well.

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

*bowing* I happily take full blame, er, credit. *g*
Yes, I love how ... flexible Damien is. He can surrender, when needed, and he can be dominant, when needed. He really is a very dear man.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Explains why Tarrant keeps following him around. Such men are hard to find. ;-)

[trobadora]

Welllll ... he has penetrated Damien's dreams, after all. :P

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

We need to see more of Damien's dreams, that much is clear. :-P

Ciani: You didn't sleep well, did you? Do you want to talk about it?
Damien: NO!

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

Damien: Tarrant was in my dreams. He seemed a little hot.
Ciani: ...

[trobadora]

:D :D :D

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I'm surprised this isn't yet the standard smutty plot device in this fandom. I mean, really! This should be our "aliens make them do it".

[trobadora]

I rather doubt you'd get any objections from any parties here present! :D

(I vote you write some. C'mon, you know you want to!)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Who says I'm not already? ;-)
We do have one or two fics with it, don't we? I remember one by Torch, and I'm sure there was another one last Yuletide too.

[trobadora]

Who says I'm not already? ;-)

WOOHOO!

We do have one or two fics with it, don't we?

Oh yes, there are a few. More than one or two, certainly. Just not enough. Not nearly enough - you're absolutely right, it's such a fantastic device.

And rereading that part at the beginning of WTNF when Damien wakes from one of his dreams still gives me the shivers:

Fear lay heavy on his chest, a thick, suffocating darkness. He tried to reason it away - as he had done so many times before, night after night on this endless journey - but reason alone wasn't enough this time. Because this fear had real substance. This nightmare might yet come to pass.

After a while he gave up, exhausted. And sank back into his fear, letting it possess him utterly. It was a gift to the one who traveled with him, whose hunger licked at the borders of his soul even now. The one who had inspired his dream, and therefore deserved to benefit from it.

Damn you, Tarrant.

Srsly, if that isn't one of the sexiest things I've ever read ...

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Damn it, I've bunnied myself.

Just goes to show that Damien likes Gerald to scare him sometimes. At least a little. :-D

[trobadora]

Damn it, I've bunnied myself.

*bounces*

And yes, he really does. :D

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I've got one quote in WTNF I'm really, really really looking forward to now. *g*

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

*fans self* oh yes... that he gives consciously his fear as a gift... and the sensuality of the description of the hunger "licking" at him...

[trobadora]

Isn't it gorgeous? Surrendering to Tarrant's hunger and all. :D

[mariem-1.livejournal.com]

Speaking about sensual descriptions, there are also "The Hunter's soul, caressing his own" and "Tarrant had fed on him for more than five midmonths on board Golden Glory, which was as intimate a contact as you could get" in WTNF.

[trobadora]

It's really a wonder Friedman doesn't seem to understand where the slash comes from!

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Is she upset by fanfic?

*is curious*

[trobadora]

She doesn't seem to be against fanfic, but she doesn't quite seem to understand it either. And she seems honestly baffled by slash, although I can't say I understand why given the sensual quality of her description sometimes.

Here is one of her statements on fanfic, and there's something on fanfic in general and slash in particular here in the FAQ on her website.

(I'll get to your other comments tomorrow; it's past 4am here and I really should be going to bed ...)

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

No rush, man. I'm moving slowly myself over here. LOL That turkey is making me sleepy.

Fascinating links. I think her desire to be informed when people are writing it is a little bizarre. I mean, I'd want to know from a narcissistic angle rather than one of preventing a bad hair day LOL. But I do think it's cool that she's not just, "Ewwwwwww," even about something she doesn't get.

I am a little surprised that she can't see the subtext in her own work, but I guess that why we have shipping wars, right? Same source, twenty five different shows.

[trobadora]

It is strange, and I really think she doesn't get it at all, but as you say, she's not going all righteous indignation on us, so that's a nice thing for a change.

As for the subtext, you'd think the sensual and erotic subtext was difficult to miss - it's so blatant sometimes. But shipping wars are a good point. *g*

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I think her confusion is less about why slash fanfiction exists about the Coldfire trilogy, and more why anybody gets a kick out of slash in the first place.

It strikes me as odd why somebody who makes a habit of sexualizing power struggles (which runs rampant through all her work) wouldn't be able to grasp the sexualization of tension-fraught relationships with another man. But hey. The human mind is a funny thing.

[trobadora]

I think her confusion is less about why slash fanfiction exists about the Coldfire trilogy, and more why anybody gets a kick out of slash in the first place.

Well, yes, but she herself is putting in erotic subtext! Surely that should make it clear where the appeal comes from - after all, it's only more of the same, more explicitly so.

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

*whimper*

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

I think the Senzei-neglect comes partly from the fact that he was a walking plot point displaying the human weakness that none of our heroes seem to have and partly from them having infinitely more important things to worry about (ie. surviving) to grieve and angst a lot.

Regarding the cultural diversity thing, how much information would there have been about the survivors of the landing? There are hints of the nationalities and ethnicities there, even in the names of cities and locations, and there are definitely more than just believers in the monoaethistic religions, which is probably why the idea of Godlings was so appealing.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Poor plot point, no love after fulfilling his duty and pointing out key vulnerabilities. Though Damien could have spared him at least a fleeting thought inbetween his permanent angsting over Gerald's fate.

Good thought on the city names, I hadn't considered those. Of course, now I'm all amused that they named one city after Morgoth from the Silmarillion (or at least that's my interpretation). *g* Still, there's a difference between naming cities after mythological concepts, and actively living them. There are quite a few names out of Greek mythology - I can't imagine they had Zeus worshippers along, just someone who liked the name Achron for a river.

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

Probably, they were just clinging to what history of earth they could remember at the last minute. "Quick! Quick! Someone, give me a God! One we haven't used!" "Yama?" "That'll do! I name this city Iyama!"

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

LOL!

On that note, any thoughts on the origins of Jaggonath? Most other places I can figure out, but that one doesn't ring a bell.

[fyrie.livejournal.com]

Quite possibly that was a later city, when they had run out of Gods and names and realised "wait, we're a new world. We don't need to depend on the old one for who we are" :)

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

reminds me of "juggernaut" -- and lookie here what wikipedia says: A juggernaut is a term used to describe a force regarded as unstoppable, that will crush all in its path.

The word is derived from the Sanskrit Jagannātha[1] (meaning "Lord of the universe") which is one of the many names of Krishna from the ancient Vedic scriptures of India. One of the most famous of Indian temples is the Jagannath Temple in Puri, Orissa, which has the Ratha Yatra ("chariot procession"), an annual procession of chariots carrying the murtis (statues) of Jagannâth (Krishna), Subhadra and Baladeva (Krishna's elder brother).

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

So it's a god after all, but they really had to go digging deep by the time they colonized that continent.

[devohoneybee.livejournal.com]

Most people think of it as the first definition, the unstoppable force, which comes (if you read further in the wiki article) from reports of devotess of the god throwing themselves under the chariots in their worshipful frenzy.

[trobadora]

So the rakh able to Work tend to be female. For lack of interest on the side of the men, as Hesseth puts it. Do you think that echoes in humans in some way as well?

No; chapter 36 explains how female Working is based in rakh evolution. Humans lack a similar background - in fact, the fae doesn't play any part in their (our) evolution. We're all equally alien on Erna, after all.

How much of Tarrant is in Damien already?

Giving the non-slashy answer, there's an active link between them, enough that Damien keeps dreaming of the fire Tarrant is burning in, and the sword can probably sense that.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Amusingly, the description of the weather in this chapter pretty much matches what's going on outside. I love the bit of musing on weather-Working. It's so old-school, and yet a little intimidating to see how far the power of even non-adept sorcerors can reach.

Oh, how Damien pines!

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

*frowns at Gmail for suddenly filtering LJ comments*

The weather-Working sounds like a really interesting thing. Even if it is about as reliable as weather reports, it still makes for a scary weapon. Imagine you want to make the people in the next valley miserable, so you just send a hailstorm over...

Damien gets better and better at pining!