Coldfire reread: Black Sun RIsing Book 3, and BSR as a whole

[trobadora]

What with Christmas coming early over on coldfire_sesa, it seems I completely lost track of time! Sorry, all - but even if late, here we go with the final discussion post for Black Sun Rising. Yes, we made it all the way through to the end - and just in time for Christmas, too!

Discussion posts

Black Sun Rising, book 1 discussion post

Black Sun Rising, book 2 discussion post

Black Sun Rising, book 3 discussion posts:
Chapter 28
Chapters 29 & 30
Chapters 31 & 32
Chapter 33
Chapter 34
Chapters 35-37
Chapter 38
Chapters 39 & 40
Chapter 41
Chapters 42 & 43
Chapter 44
Chapters 45 & 46
Epilogue

(You can also find all the discussion posts under the bsr group reading tag.)

Some thoughts

In my opinion, the third book is the strongest part of BSR, even if it's not the tightest. The Master may not exactly be very exciting, but nonetheless - I like this part best. What's your favourite part/chapter?

The third part is also where you really have to acknowledge the slashiness - the subtext grows stronger and stronger, and the imagery gets more and more erotic, and it's just there, isn't it?

Btw, it's quite amazing how much foreshadowing there is in this book for what's to come, isn't it? Even Calesta, who seems like nothing more than the Master's pet demon at first - Gerald certainly takes him for that when Calesta approaches him in the epilogue, but already we're getting the hint that there's more going on.

Some of us have talked about this, but I keep wondering - even in full health, it took quite a lot out of the Hunter to cross the Canopy when they first got into the rakhlands. How the hell did he even make it back, to then recover in the Forest? Any thoughts?

And if you remember reading the books for the first time - were you surprised when Ciani vanished from the narrative at the end of this book, but Hesseth stayed?

Finally, considering the three parts of the book as a whole, how well do they hold together? The first part is rather separate from the other two, after all. What do you think?

And of course here's also where you can jump in and discuss anything and everything you've been wanting to discuss, but never quite found the right time. :-)

Comments

[ladyphoenix9]

Been reading all the discussion posts, just never jumped in.

As I whole, I usually tell prospective readers not to be put off by the somewhat slow first book. It only gets better from there. ;) You do get a bit of a bait and switch feeling, especially by the end of the book. Ciani's suddenly not a factor and they're striking off on a sea voyage -- quite a far cry from "Save the damsel in distress" at the beginning.

I actually read the series backwards (CoS, WTNF, then finished up with BSR) so I probably had a jump on some of the more easily-missed clues. I think the one clue that was really almost too obscure was Senzei's death. Perhaps if Senzei hadn't been so blind to everything else that didn't involved fae, he would have realized something was off with the whole situation. Since he had no revelation (other than oops, I seem to be burning to death) it really takes a reread or two to understand the illusion at work on him.

One other thing that I think is probably a clue is Ciani's loss of adeptitude. It's my personal theory she didn't "lose" it at all -- it was masked in illusion by Calesta. It just doesn't make sense -- I think, though I can't swear to it, one or two times the characters even make a similar comment about how odd it is for her to have lost an innate ability in the attack.

How the hell did he even make it back, to then recover in the Forest?
I wonder if the passage would have been easier through the air in his bird form? I somehow can't imagine Tarrant taking the water route again, even if he did threaten to swim home at the end of this book. I imagine he still would have had to recover for a while in the rakhlands -- he was clearly not in the best shape for travel when Damien parted ways with him.

[trobadora]

Hi there, sorry about the late reply, and welcome aboard!

I think you're the second person I know who read the books backwards - I can't really imagine that! But I suspect the first book must seem even slower if you come from the later ones, which are basically all Damien/Gerald, all the time. *g*

I wonder just how much Friedman planned the trilogy ahead - I mean, all the hints were there, but how much did she plan the three books as a whole, and how mcuh did she focus on making each stand on its own?

Agreed that the illusion involved in Senzei's death is a bit too obscure - you can go along happily, never even noticing it, and it doesn't matter one way or the other.

. It's my personal theory she didn't "lose" it at all -- it was masked in illusion by Calesta.

Wow, that is a cool theory, and one I never even thought of! Gerald remarks several times on how weird it is that she should have lost her adeptitude, but I always took it to be another one of the hints that the "demons" who attacked her weren't demons at all, but living beings. Thinking about it now, that doesn't make all that much sense, though, because why should they be able to do that? Your theory seems much more sensible! (Only, wouldn't that mean Calesta would have had to pay attention to her basically non-stop? And she wouldn't have regained her adeptitude with the death of the Dark One who took it, but Calesta would have had to deliberately lift the illusion. Hm...)

I wonder if the passage would have been easier through the air in his bird form?

Yeah, the Canopy might be weaker up in the air, where it was less likely to be breached. That would make some sort of sense to me - at least, more sense than Gerald suddenly, in the state he was in, managing without problem what he barely survived in full health.

[ladyphoenix9]

Not a problem at all -- I couldn't believe I was the first one to comment, actually. ;)

In some ways, I'm glad I read them backwards. I already knew what the end was, so I had more time to think, "Ah, that was a clever clue!" right while I was reading it the first time. Chances are I wouldn't have lasted through the beginning of the first book if I hadn't had the promise of Tarrant waiting in the wings.

I was really happy to know Narilka had been present since the beginning, too. She was the character that made me think Friedman had very deliberately planned every little clue. Even if half of it was accidental, it was still superb, and she got better after the first book, which seems weak in comparison (probably due to the Master of Lema being a dingbat with an absurdly incomprehensible long term strategy. *g*)

Only, wouldn't that mean Calesta would have had to pay attention to her basically non-stop? And she wouldn't have regained her adeptitude with the death of the Dark One who took it, but Calesta would have had to deliberately lift the illusion. Hm...

I'm going to have to dig out my books and investigate a little about that myself. I've got a suspicion the Iezu illusion is only as powerful over you as you believe it is. Maybe Ciani believed she'd get her adeptitude back with her memories, and that was all it took to break Calesta's illusion. And when Damien visited Karril's temple, didn't Karril say Damien saw what he wanted/believed/expected would be there? I always took it that it had been strongly suggested to Ciani she forgot how to See because a Dark One took it...but if the Dark One died, she fully expected to have it back. (Though to be honest, right now I can't remember it being explicitly said whether Ciani really did get her adeptitude back or not. Hmm! I definitely need to get my books and keep them right here by my desk. It's funny the things you latch onto *cough Tarrant cough* and the things you forget.)

[trobadora]

I couldn't believe I was the first one to comment, actually. ;)

Not only the first, but the only - I think the post got lost in the pre-Christmas rush.

Narilka is a great character - I love her too, and her scenes in the first book are fabulous. It's a shame I never could warm up to Andrys; it's somewhat spoiled the Narilka scenes in CoS for me.

I've got a suspicion the Iezu illusion is only as powerful over you as you believe it is.

Hm, I'm pretty sure that's not the case - they can completely alter someone's perceptions, and I don't think that has anything to do with the person's belief. The bit in Karril's temple was Karril deliberately showing Damien what he expected, so he'd be less on edge. And yes, Ciani does get her adeptitude back in the end, when Tarrant bursts open the tunnel and part of it collapses on top of the Dark Ones.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

One other thing that I think is probably a clue is Ciani's loss of adeptitude. It's my personal theory she didn't "lose" it at all -- it was masked in illusion by Calesta. It just doesn't make sense -- I think, though I can't swear to it, one or two times the characters even make a similar comment about how odd it is for her to have lost an innate ability in the attack.

That never made sense to me, either. Yours is not a bad theory. It's one way to make it make sense. Another possibility is that they didn't precisely steal her adeptitude, but that they stole her ability to perceive of it--something like psychosomatic blindness. Though that doesn't quite make perfect sense, either.

But the question of adeptitude remains a foggy one, really. Consider that Ciani once shared it with Senzei, and later on, Tarrant shares his Sight with Damien twice. That's not how normal senses work, for certain. At least not on earth.

But if you can use the fae to wi-fi an adept's Sight into somebody else's brain, then presumably you can steal the signal, too. And I presume that's what was going on. They say repeatedly that there's an existing link between Ciani and her attacker, so maybe it was using that link to hijack the things she would otherwise have seen and experienced for itself. It's not precisely that she ever lost them...it's that they were constantly being held back from her.

And which incidentally means that Tarrant maybe didn't have to kill that boy back in the dae. If that's the case, then in the process of what they did, they might well have killed his attacker and he could have been healed.

[trobadora]

Another possibility is that they didn't precisely steal her adeptitude, but that they stole her ability to perceive of it--something like psychosomatic blindness.

Oh, I like that idea! That works better than constantly masking it - it's damage done to her, but without the weirdness of stealing an innate ability.

And which incidentally means that Tarrant maybe didn't have to kill that boy back in the dae.

Does it, though? Tarrant (claims he) determines that there's nothing there any more, and if his self were merely held back, there would have been a connection to his attacker which Tarrant would have picked up. Remember how they use the link between Ciani and her attacker to interrogate him during the True Night? If there was something that could return to the body, there would have to be a connection, and there wasn't. Well, according to Tarrant. *g* But I believe him about that.

What I'm wondering, though, is how that kind of link works, because the Canopy obviously doesn't sever it - Ciani's attacker crosses it way before her. Normal sorcery can't cross the Canopy, so it would make sense if it were connected to Calesta, i.e. Iezu powers, which don't quite follow the same rules. *ponders*

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Tarrant told Damien at the time that he perceived a tenuous link between the boy's soul and his body, but that he couldn't reach it.

The Canopy screws with the actual fae (and fae can cross if it's bound, though it doesn't like to; witness the fact that Tarrant's sword passed through intact). It doesn't necessarily screw with connections. Tarrant explains to Damien that their own bond is a channel between them for the fae to flow along, not an actual use of the fae itself (other than in its forging). The thing with Ciani and the Dark One could be like that. Also, the Dark Ones are rakh themselves. Again, we don't know how the Canopy interacts with the rakh.

[trobadora]

Actually, I just reread that passage, and I'm not entirely sure how to interpret it in this context. One more thing we'll never know for sure ...

[juonetar.livejournal.com]

Oh, I feel remorse. I really should have kept up with rereading schedule. I just now went through the group reading posts, and noticed I have missed all the fun and interesting discussions!

Anyway, I finished my BSR reread today (yay for Epiphany and time off from work). I still have this slightly idiotic grin on my face. Damn, I love these books to pieces!

Hunter's second crossing over the Canopy needs exploring in fics. I'd like to imagine that Damien fed him before the crossing, but that doesn't seem very plausible. Tarrant just refused the quest Damien suggested, so Damien wouldn't have any convenient excuses to help him. Of course, perhaps Damien just tried persuasion with blood and nightmares after words failed? In any case, Tarrant must be in really bad shape when he finally makes it to the Forest.

[trobadora]

All the old discussion posts are still open, so if you feel like it, jump in anywhere at any time!

I'd love to see some fic that deals with the Hunter's second crossing - alighiera had a ficlet in which Ciani feeds him enough that he can do it, but that's the only fic I'm aware of. I like your idea!

[juonetar.livejournal.com]

All the old discussion posts are still open, so if you feel like it, jump in anywhere at any time!
I just might. Discussions posts may serve as a kind of notebook, later, when one wants to return to some point of the book and remember what was thinking (or what others were) at the time of this reread...

At which point will the collective imagination of the Coldfire fans reach the critical point that makes the stories manifest out of the thin air, I wonder. Waiting that to happen, I keep thinking that we should organize a plot bunny register. Honestly, Coldfire inspires such an amount of fic ideas all he time - would it generate more actual stories and writing, if there was some common playground for listing and cultivating story ideas? One could offer their own half-formed ideas for others, perhaps someone else wants to develop them further.

[trobadora]

I keep thinking that we should organize a plot bunny register

That's a great idea! You might ask the mods about maybe doing that on the comm?

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

The three books differ widely in tone and setting, almost like watching episodes of a TV show where the characters are someplace new every week...or like Star Wars, where the setting changes are so distinct and stark that they almost separate the parts of the movie. But they lead into one another well, so I didn't feel any displacement when moving between them. The first book is interesting, because when looking at the story as a whole, it's rather obviously an entire section of infodumping...and yet when in the middle of it, the story flows along so engagingly that it never really strikes me that way.

I can't speak to how it strikes others; I have loaned the books to people who couldn't force themselves past that first section because it was boring them. But I've always been fascinated with the details of world-building.

The third book of BSR was my favorite too, precisely because of the developing relationship and subtext between Damien and the Hunter. At the time I first read this, I don't recall if I was precisely aware of slash, but I knew I liked it. I liked the tension, which worked on so many levels, I liked the sense of spiritual danger rather than physical danger as the over-riding threat (and I still think that Friedman does that better here than almost any author I've encountered), and I loved the fact that the writer wrote Ciani out.

In fact, that was the point when I fell in love with these books. It was the proof I needed that I could trust this author with my investment in the story. It shocked the hell out of me when I realized Ciani was gone, because I was so used to the presence of the love interest in stories that I took her for a given. In my experience, love interest characters were habitually deformed in order to fit into relationships (ah, and I suddenly realize why I have certain issues with female characters). To see the author write her out rather than force her into plot-shaped holes was literally a revelation for me.

I honestly have no idea how he crossed the Canopy again. The only thing I can think of is that maybe it's not a problem if you're leaving? But that doesn't make much sense. For that matter, how did either of them cross? It's not like you can swim across, the barrier against the fae means you can't Call for someone, and they hardly knew enough of what they were getting into to arrange a rendezvous for pick-up. So I can only assume the rakh arranged something. If that's the case, then maybe they were able to protect their passengers somehow.

[juonetar.livejournal.com]

For that matter, how did either of them cross?
Damien was thinking of Worldsend Mountain, wasn't he? How it would be a difficult in winter, but he was ready to try. Now, the kinds of hallusinations and weirdness he experienced crossing Canopy in a ship would be insanely dangerous in the mountains (snow, ravines, cold). But surely Hesseth could at least guide him, if the rakh couldn't help in other ways...

But Tarrant, in that state? The rakh probably wouldn't help him. Not without Damien's or Ciani's influence. And Tarrant really wouldn't want to be indebted to either. Hm...

[trobadora]

The next we hear from Damien, he's in a port city. He'd have to cover quite a bit of ground to get there via the land route! But maybe the rakh have ships of some kind too?

[trobadora]

The first book is interesting, because when looking at the story as a whole, it's rather obviously an entire section of infodumping...and yet when in the middle of it, the story flows along so engagingly that it never really strikes me that way.

That's very true - it's all set-up, yet it doesn't read as set-up - it stands quite well on its own as a story, even though the Master is rather a weak villain.

But I've always been fascinated with the details of world-building.

Me too! I love worldbuilding, and could speculate about this world all day - going back and rereading that part, finding all those small bits I'd missed or forgotten, was really fabulous.

and I loved the fact that the writer wrote Ciani out.

Hee! I'd never have thought about it that way, but now that you say it, it makes perfect sense: writing out the love interest, what an unusual move!

I honestly have no idea how he crossed the Canopy again.

You're right, it's not just Tarrant we need to wonder about - how the hell did Damien get back?! I mean, he could theoretically have crossed via the Worldsend Mountains, but that would have been a rather long journey, and I don't think that much time passed. Maybe the rakh have ships of some kind? Weird how I never noticed that before.