Coldfire reread: Revisiting Black Sun Rising

[trobadora]

All right, everyone, time to get back on track with our community reread of the trilogy!

We finished the first book just before Christmas, and now we're almost ready to move on to the second, When True Night Falls. Stay tuned for some organisational stuff on Thursday!

In the mean time, let's revisit Black Sun Rising ...

Our final BSR discussion post was a bit overlooked due to not only being just before Christmas, but also a day late. (Sorry about that!) So I'm going to repost it here to help us all get back into the swing of things:

Discussion posts

Black Sun Rising, book 1 discussion post
Black Sun Rising, book 2 discussion post
Black Sun Rising, book 3 discussion post (original posting)

Some thoughts

In my opinion, the third book is the strongest part of BSR, even if it's not the tightest. The Master may not exactly be very exciting, but nonetheless - I like this part best. What's your favourite part/chapter?

The third part is also where you really have to acknowledge the slashiness - the subtext grows stronger and stronger, and the imagery gets more and more erotic, and it's just there, isn't it?

Btw, it's quite amazing how much foreshadowing there is in this book for what's to come, isn't it? Even Calesta, who seems like nothing more than the Master's pet demon at first - Gerald certainly takes him for that when Calesta approaches him in the epilogue, but already we're getting the hint that there's more going on.

Some of us have talked about this, but I keep wondering - even in full health, it took quite a lot out of the Hunter to cross the Canopy when they first got into the rakhlands. How the hell did he even make it back, to then recover in the Forest? Any thoughts?

And if you remember reading the books for the first time - were you surprised when Ciani vanished from the narrative at the end of this book, but Hesseth stayed?

Finally, considering the three parts of the book as a whole, how well do they hold together? The first part is rather separate from the other two, after all. What do you think?

There are some interesting comments on the original post here which you might want to check out if you haven't seen them, but feel free to discuss the book - or anything else you've been meaning to bring up - in either of the posts. :-)

Comments

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I tend to read the prologue and then jump straight to the blood bond half the time, then skip selectively - maximize the good and slashy bits. *g* My favourite is the prologue, simply for the punch it delivers. We get a protagonist who is willing to commit murder for very selfish reasons, something that did shock me a bit back when I was still a young and impressionable reader. :-)

As far as the Canopy crossing on the way back goes, I still think it was Ciani's doing in some way. She's a full adept again at that point, and she had reason to return a favour (though I don't doubt Gerald protested a lot). How exactly she did it is another story, of course.

I was convinced Ciani would be back at some point, and I remember being quite disappointed when it became clear in CoS that she wouldn't be. We've said it before - we never actually get to know her.

Coherence of the book... not so much, I think. There's that big chunk of the first 150 or so pages where all those bits and pieces are put in place, but it's rather disjointed. It all clicks together at the Hunter's Keep, but before that, it feels a bit unmotivated to me.

Whenever I rec the trilogy, my warnings tend to be "the prologue is a bit dark, and the first 150 pages drag. Hang on until Damien meets Tarrant, that's where the book really starts."

[trobadora]

I generally start with Narilka's chapter and then skip ahead to their first meeting - I admit it, the prologue never held much appeal for me until this reread. *g*

Ciani helping Gerald cross the Canopy would make some sort of sense, but I'm not fully convinced on that one. In fact, I really can't make up my mind about it. Is it possible it's easier to cross high up in the air? After all, the Canopy is brought into existence by the rakh's need for protection - and they wouldn't need protection from above, would they? *ponders*

I wish I could remember whether or not I expected Ciani to return, but yeah, as we've said repeatedly, we never really do know her. And I still maintain that's a shame.

I was actually surprised, on rereading, how well it all holds together. The first part does seem separate from everything else, but still, there's so much good stuff in there. The worldbuilding alone ... I generally rec the books for the Gerald/Damien relationship and awesome worldbuilding, with a caveat that one will probably only fully appreciate the latter on a second read.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

The prologue still holds a "wow, now that's different" feeling for me. And I'm very appreciative of Gerald's darker sides, so it's very appealing. *g* I do stop for Narilka, I have to say. Must see her beginnings.

I always think of the Canopy as a dome of sorts - going up high wouldn't help with that. If it's more wall-like, it would be a possibility.

I wonder, does the mind link work through the canopy? If it does, Damien might just have had a fainting spell at some point that came and went without explanation because someone munched on his energy. *g*

[trobadora]

I do imagine the Canopy as a dome, but possibly weakest at the top and strongest where it meets the earth? It would make sense - I assume energy still needs to come from somewhere even on Erna, and why waste it where it isn't needed? *g*

I like your idea with the mind link. They initially assumed no sorcery could pass the Canopy, and apparently Gerald tried before, so there's some evidence for that. On the other hand, the rakh who ate Ciani's memories/adeptitude did pass through the Canopy, and that didn't cut off the connection between them, so it can't be as clear-cut. Perhaps only certain kinds of bonds work through it, and if so, it would certainly make sense for the channel between Damien and Gerald to stil work.

(Btw, you didn't reply to my email about the schedule - let me know!)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I don't know nearly enough about dome architecture to discuss necessary energy and power *G* though I think the structure itself holds itself up with not all that much effort?

If it's got weak spots, that could work. Whether he's capable of shapeshifting, though... remember he couldn't do it in WTNF after the little earthquake-causing stunt? If he can still access Damien's fears as food, that might be enough of an energy boost to get him going. Though I don't want to imagine the crash landing in the Forest. Amoril may not have been impressed.

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

oooh I still think the prologue was fascinating! Part of what makes Tarrant so sexy as oppose to so many villains who try so hard to be and fail is how he is introduced; first through his wife and doesnt she say she almost reveres him. Then through Narilka, both of whom are in their own right quite powerful women, and both shown very quickly to be bowing to his will. I think the reader is never allowed to be on equal footing to him, at least not until Damien and even then, out of the 2 more often than not Damien is rescued or drank from or portrayed as weaker... I think for all that he has 'killed nastier things' Tarrant could quite easily beat him in a fight.... So it is always interesting to me how Friedmans style works - she shows her most interesting characters from the perspective of those she wants the reader to identify with... and to begin with she has him show no mercy, but to balance it out, with Narilka he does, to show a different more complicated side! Sorry this kind of rambled, Coldfire and no sleep has that effect....

[trobadora]

think the reader is never allowed to be on equal footing to him, at least not until Damien and even then, out of the 2 more often than not Damien is rescued or drank from or portrayed as weaker...

That's an interesting point! She does introduce Gerald as very much in control, which makes the few occasions where he's helpless all the more effective.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

out of the 2 more often than not Damien is rescued or drank from or portrayed as weaker...

*nod* And Damien is uneasy everytime he sees Gerald show weakness, while he takes it much better when it's someone else in the travel party. Damien expects him to be strong and not scared - and while Gerald seems to be afraid often enough, Damien always reacts to it as if it's completely unexpected.

she shows her most interesting characters from the perspective of those she wants the reader to identify with...

Who do you think is the real central character of the books? Damien or Gerald? I've always been curious about how others see that.

[trobadora]

Who do you think is the real central character of the books? Damien or Gerald? I've always been curious about how others see that.

Ooooh! I've always wondered, too. I mean, for me, Gerald is definitely the focus, and Damien is simply how we come to know him, but then I'm a Gerald fangirl and possibly not the best person to ask. :D

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I tend to think of them as Sherlock Holmes and Watson, so I'm with you on that. *g* Though I'll not deny that Damien gives him a run for his money where the central character slot is concerned.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I think they share the story equally...which is actually pretty odd, as I don't think I've ever seen that done quite so perfectly as here.

I actually have a theory that they turn out to be two halves of a single character, sort of--psyche and shadow, so to speak--and that the story is actually about who they both are because of each other. For certain, we spend a lot more time in their internal lives than we do paying attention to the movements of Calesta's plot.

[trobadora]

I actually have a theory that they turn out to be two halves of a single character, sort of--psyche and shadow, so to speak--and that the story is actually about who they both are because of each other.

You've mentioned that before, and I'm still intrigued by that. Any chance you might elaborate?

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Yeah, now that we're finished with at least one book, I'm thinking of putting it into essay form. It'd get too long to explain in comments.

[shadowystar.livejournal.com]

'I actually have a theory that they turn out to be two halves of a single character, sort of--psyche and shadow, so to speak--and that the story is actually about who they both are because of each other.' (having some problems with text editing here since that's my very first comment as a LJ user as you see, I wanted this in italics)
Introduction first: I'm the one who wrote that anonymous comment for the prologue about Church and Gerald being danger to it due to his personal popularity... Guess, not that anonymous anymore! :-)
As for the musings... Agree with you totally here, it's almost like they are one person which in my opinion becomes more evident when in CoS (sorry for the spoiler) they have an immediate access to each other's perception! If that's not a quite good definition of being one single being please tell me another.
As I don't like Ciani much (some understatements here, she's a lot of a Mary Sue to me), I wasn't sad to watch her vanish from the story. And I didn't expect her to show up again because it was obvious to me she's played her part and wasn't needed anymore. I do know, of course, the plot would be quite different without her since she's Damien's motivator to pact with said evil in the first place... And I don't think she was the one to help Gerald back to the Forest because, well, we can call it even. Ciani was in the state she was because the Hunter lost his self-control, and Gerald had done quite a lot to make up for that. Further more, Ciani, again, being the Mary Sue she is AND being intimately involved with Damien couldn't notice his inner turmoil and I think she might get a tiny bit angry with the Hunter for upsetting her lover. Not to mention putting him into danger and so on...
So my favorite to get Gerald across the Serpent is clearly Karril. Remember please that Karril is a shape-shifter and think a second about what is his aspect - and how he can manipulate humans with this. Not to forget his powers to manipulate the fae as well... So I think Karril helped a lot.
For I don't think getting rid of the Master of Lema -which Gerald didn't personally accomplish though it was with his help- would make such a species as the rakh feel in any way indebted. In my opinion, most (with 'most' being the imperative word) of the rakh might have thought something along the line: the Master of Lema was a human. It is only appropriate humans dealt with her. We had to suffer because of her so there can't be any debt
(I never wrote a rakh POW so it may be a little too easy way of thinking - please tell me what you think).

What I was expectig in BSR, and what never came, is some background of Damien's. I would have liked to know more about his family (I'm not sure where the part about siblings was...) as well as about Church education and so on. I somewhat consider it unfair since we know the Hunter's history but not Damien's in such detail. To be precise, we know the process of Gerald becoming the Hunter (as in development) but not the process of Damien becoming a priest... And here again, we're at the point above with being one person... One history, one past, one present ... one future? ;-) That's where the fanfiction begins, isn't it?
Smiles tiredly,
Shadowystar

[trobadora]

Hi there! This comment notification has been hiding somewhere in my inbox for a long time, but I wanted to say a) welcome aboard!, and b) I did mean to address a few points:

And I don't think she was the one to help Gerald back to the Forest because, well, we can call it even. Ciani was in the state she was because the Hunter lost his self-control, and Gerald had done quite a lot to make up for that. Further more, Ciani, again, being the Mary Sue she is AND being intimately involved with Damien couldn't notice his inner turmoil and I think she might get a tiny bit angry with the Hunter for upsetting her lover. Not to mention putting him into danger and so on...

First, I really don't see Ciani as a Mary Sue at all, and second, she never gives the impression that she's all that worried about Damien. She turns to the Hunter when she's lost her memories, against Damien's very obvious disapproval, and doesn't seem fazed by that at all. By the end, she's moved even further away from him, and he himself acknowledges he barely knew her. She gives every impression of making up her own mind about her decisions. So whether or not she might have assisted Gerald in crossing the Canopy, I really don't think Damien would play any part in her decision it one way or the other.

Karril would be an interesting candidate, but he's Iezu - his power is to manipulate perception. I don't see how he could actually have done anything to cross the Canopy.

Absolutely agreed about Damien's background, though. I continue to be surprised just how little we know of him.

[fallintosanity.livejournal.com]

Who do you think is the real central character of the books?

I've always said that Damien is the protagonist but Gerald is the main character, if that makes any sense. It's Damien who follows the steps of the Hero's Journey, and Damien who drives the story forward, which makes him the protagonist. Gerald, while central to the story, is more like the One Ring in Tolkein - incredibly powerful, prone to anger, very willful, but ultimately carried and manipulated by Damien (Frodo). Frodo is the protagonist, but the story would never have happened without the One Ring. (And they even have a similar ending - taken to a volcano and sacrificed to it!)

Hmm, now that I think about it, there's actually a striking amount of parallel between the LOTR and Coldfire...

[trobadora]

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<i<It's Damien who follows the steps of the Hero's Journey, and Damien who drives the story forward</i>

Really? I'd be more inclined to see it the opposite way - it's Gerald's story, his journey and his redemption, and Damien is merely the instrument, or rather the catalyst for that development.

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

oooh its totally Gerald. Without him the book just would not be that interesting. Without Damien it would be different, true, but I think he would still fascinate me anyway.... *swoons* I actually cannot decide what about him makes for such an effective character but it totally does....

[ladyphoenix9]

I think Friedman's intent was to make Damien the central character (at least in BSR,) and then Tarrant just ran roughshod over her plans. ;) WTNF is about equal, I'd say. By CoS, I'd say we're clearly in Tarrant-territory. Very nicely balanced, intentional or not.

I also agree with prettyarbitrary's theory about it being a shared story...there wouldn't be a story if you were missing one or the other as they needed each other to advance as characters. My idea of sharing just looks to the overall plot instead of literally sharing in each individual book -- leads to the same conclusions though, I'd imagine.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Like I said, I'm quite curious how Damien made it back, for that matter. It's not as though he had access to a boat (unless Hesseth arranged something for him, I suppose).

I can see the Rakh helping Tarrant get across the Canopy, actually. After what he did for them, they do kind of owe him. And include the fact that if they didn't get him out of there, he'd be likely to cut swathes through their population? Far better to just ship him back to the human lands and let them deal with it.

[trobadora]

Yes, that's a very good question indeed! I still have no idea - my impression was that the rakh, when they did cross over to the human lands, took the route via the Worldsend Mountains. But that may be wrong - after all, it's never said explicitly, so who knows, they may have boats and ships that could get them across.

As for Gerald, they might help him if pressured, but somehow I have trouble seeing Gerald turn to them for assistance of any kind. Would his pride allow it, do you think?

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I dunno. At that point, I can see how he may have taken enough of a beating to feel he's entitled to a little help. On the other hand, I can't see him trusting rakh around him in his weakened state.

And besides, my...what passes for a theory depends on my assumption that the rakh can do something about the Canopy, which I pretty much pulled from thin air. There's absolutely no support for it in the text.

[trobadora]

Yeah, I dunno either. *sighs*

So many things we'll never know!

(... so many bunnies ...)