Coldfire re-read: WTNF - prologue and chapter 1

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

We're back!

For those of you who have been along for the ride for BSR, welcome back! For those who are new, welcome! And everyone - enjoy yourselves, as usual.

Since the feedback on the posting style/method/frequency etc was "keep it the same", we will do. So expect to hear from trobadora on Mondays and me on Thursdays, bringing you the discussion posts for the latest chapters. As before, there is also schedule of all chapters which you can find here.

So, onwards to the prologue and the first chapter of When True Night Falls:


Plot Summary

Prologue
Once again we start the story with a sacrifice, this time with a much larger impact as the first settlers figure out how to deal with a planet where your dreams come true. Unlike most sci-fi shows want to make you believe, the sacrifice isn't stopped at the last minute this time and the settlers from Earth lose all their technology in an impressive fireball.

Chapter 1
Damien writes his report on What I did on my summer holidays and sends it to the Patriarch, who is less than thrilled by hearing what Damien has been up to and in what unsavoury company he has been. Un-thrilled enough to cast Damien out of the Church for his willingness to accept Tarrant's company. It all turns out to be a nightmare, created by Tarrant who is still snacking on Damien's fear - something Damien is so accustomed to by now that he barely makes a fuss any longer. They share a little Titanic moment at the bow of the ship, while Damien once more walks the slippery slope of justifying to himself just why he brought Tarrant along.



Quotes

• They couldn't go back. They couldn't get help. This far out in the galaxy they couldn't even get advice from home. The seedship's programmers were long since dead, as was the culture that had nurtured them. Communication with Earth would mean waiting more than forty thousand years for an answer - and that was if Earth was there to respond, and if it would bother. What had the mother planet become, in the millennia it had taken this seedship to find a home? The temporal gulf was almost too vast, too awesome to contemplate.


• "I think they'll give us a tool. A means of communication. That's the challenge, don't you see? We have to impress the power here with Terran symbology, so that we have some way to reach out to it. To control it, Leo! If we don't manage that, then we may as well pack it in here and now. Because all our technology won't stop it from killing, when it controls the very laws of nature."
  "So you answer it with more killing? Feed it blood-"
  "Sacrifice is the most ancient and powerful symbol we have," Ian told him. "Think of it! When primitive man sought to placate his dieties, it was that blood of his own kind that he burned on the altar. When the God of the Jews decided to test Abraham's faith, it was the sacrifice of his own flesh and blood that He demanded. Moses saved his people from the Angel of Death by smearing the blood of animals on their doorposts. And when God reached out His Hand to man with His message of divine forgiveness, He created a Son of His Own Substance to serve as a sacrificial offering. Sacrifice is a bridge between man and the Infinite - and it can work for us here, Leo. In time it can end the killings. I believe that."


• Bind evil to serve a worthy cause, the Prophet wrote, and you will have altered its nature forever. I pray it will be so with him.


• Even the Holy Mother, Matriarch of the westlands, would respect and honor such a dismissal. Which meant that he was no longer a priest. Which meant in turn that he was... nothing. Because he suddenly realized that he had no identity that was not Church-born; there was no fragment of his psyche that did not define itself according to the Prophet's dream, the Prophet's hierarchy.


• After a while he gave up, exhausted. And sank back into his fear, letting it possess him utterly. It was a gift to the one who traveled with him, whose hunger licked at the borders of his soul even now. The one who had inspired his dream, and therefore deserved to benefit from it.
  Damn you, Tarrant.


• But for you we would all be dead. Four dozen bodies rotting at the bottom of the sea, our mission in ruins. And our enemy would be unopposed, free to work his will upon the world. Isn't that worth the sacrifice of a life or two? And he despaired, Where is the balance in it? How do you judge such a thing?

Thoughts

• The prologue here is the most obviously sci-fi part of the entire trilogy. Would you have liked to see more of this during the rest of the books?


• There's a distinct settler mentality to the colonists. With 4000 on the ship and only 3000 waking up again after the coldsleep, that's a willingness to take a considerable risk in order to settle on a new planet.


• I've never quite put it together at first, but - the seed ship is still in orbit, isn't it? So would it still be up there in the time of Gerald, and then later even Damien's?


• Anyone good at maths - if they had a little more than 3000 colonists and 12 centuries, at what kind of a population size are we looking in Damien's time?


• Casca and Tarrant are very similar in their understanding, reasoning and approach. And just three centuries make a difference between being shot as a madman, and hailed as a prophet. I think that to the colonists, losing Casca may have been a loss just as serious as that of the technology. He is the one who put it all together and who figured out the ramifications of the situation. Who knows how long it took them after his execution to reach the same level of understanding again?


• I have to admit that the idea of Damien drawing pictures of Tarrant and sending them in to the Patriarch always amuses me greatly.


• When you think of the Damien we met in BSR and the Damien here, the changes in his attitude are tremendous. He used to be so black and white at the start, but now he's discovered all those shades of grey inbetween. I wonder - do you think Tarrant's company is corrupting him because of some fae aspect, or is it more a matter of it forcing Damien to reconsider his position on many things?

Have fun, and we'll continue on Monday with chapters 2 and 3!

Comments

[trobadora]

Oh God, I'm so behind on everything Coldfire. I'll get back to the thinky stuff, promise, but in the mean time:

I have to admit that the idea of Damien drawing pictures of Tarrant and sending them in to the Patriarch always amuses me greatly.

That just made me giggle like a giggly thing. :D

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

He'd better hope Gerald doesn't find out about them. He'd never hear the end of it!

*waves hello* Hope you don't mind my joining in

[9thcircleofhell.livejournal.com]

What I wouldn't give to see Damien's rendering/interpretation of the Hunter! Pictures convey emotion after all and if anything pissed the Patriarch off, I can see it being how Damien see the former Prophet. I'd actually forgotten that Damien could draw (and apparently quite well if he's sending portraits). Maybe it's just because I have negative artistic talent but that little fact gave more depth to Damien's character for me even if it wasn't meant to (and I don't think it's ever mentioned or utilized again). And the image of his sitting down to sketch a picture of Gerald . . . ^__^

Casca and Tarrant

[ninedin.livejournal.com]

I find your insight on the similarity between Casca and Tarrant absolutely fascinating. What I believe makes the difference is not just the 300 years: it's 300 years ON ERNA, 300 years of separation from Earth culture and traditions, of forming a new culture in significantly different environment. The change is great, but not enormously so, though: it did not take that much, after all, for Tarrant to be called an accursed sorcerer instead of holy prophet, even in his lifetime.

Re: Casca and Tarrant

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

It really got me today when I was paying close attention to what I was reading. Casca's lines could have come straight from Tarrant's mouth, with a slight change in vocabulary. The concepts are so absolutely identical.

Ernan culture feels like Earth culture on fast-forward, at least the first few centuries. Go from space age to deepest medieval standards to renaissance, all that in three centuries.

are we spoiling for the whole series? I can't remember. :)

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

I would absolutely liked to have seen more of the sci-fi in the series, especially since the end of the whole thing is so sci-fi oriented.

I also thought that must mean the seed ship is still out there orbiting. They'd know if the orbit had decayed and it crashed. That would be monumental no matter where it landed.

What killed me the most, what I loved the most about that flashback to the original settlers is how we readers assume that the sacrifice is of flesh and blood--that it will be the taking of life. And then when we realize it's the knowledge--who they were, what they knew, all those things that kept them tied to and of Earth? Wow. Really freaking powerful.

Re: are we spoiling for the whole series? I can't remember. :)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I don't think we have any new readers around, so spoil ahead. ;-)

Can you imagine what it must be like to have that ship in orbit? That would be a constant reminder of everything that's lost, so close but absolutely impossible to get to.

It's the biggest sacrifice possible, when you think about it. One or two deaths - well, those happen. But erasing your past? Actually, when you think about it, this is a lot like Gerald's final sacrifice - he gives up the past too. And there is a blood sacrifice here when Casca gets shot, so it's a combination. Case may accidentally have imprinted blood sacrifice on the planet when he shot him.

[9thcircleofhell.livejournal.com]

I loved this particular nightmare and how much insight it gives into Damien. The description of what being ousted from the Church meant to him, how his identity was so intertwined with his profession made his ultimate, voluntary withdrawal all the more poignant. And though it probably wouldn't have occurred to Damien, couldn't that sacrifice have been strong enough to have powered its own Working?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

And though it probably wouldn't have occurred to Damien, couldn't that sacrifice have been strong enough to have powered its own Working?

That's an absolutely fascinating thought!

Assuming that the value of sacrifice is the value the owner puts on it, then it really might have rivalled Gerald's sacrifice. Gerald puts survival above almost everything else, while Damien does the same with his service to the Church. It really could have worked.

[alice_montrose]

The sci-fi possibilities in this series have always intrigued me, but I really like the blend of sci-fi, fantasy, historical and involutive/re-evolutive. It's interesting to see how a society may collapse when you take away most of what represents it, and how it will evolve while staying true - or not - to what they remember said Terran legacy to be. Also, the historical periods equivalent to those of Earth (Dark Ages, Renaissance). I believe the trilogy is set in the "contemporary age" equivalent, which makes it easier for us to relate to and not quite as historical/fantasy.

They never did say what happened to the seed ship, but given that it has withstood 12 centuries, the possibilities of it still being in orbit (and even operational) are quite high. Which gives me so many plot bunnies... better not poke at it.

Population size would depend on many factors. In any case, I estimate no more than a million - total, on both continents. Feel free to contradict me. :)

Awwww, lookit Damien trying to sketch Gerald! And it must have been a reasonably accurate drawing, too, for the Patriarch to recognize Gerald in COS! Which means Damien has some well-hidden talents he never speaks of, and drawing people is one of them. I envy him this one!

BUT! He has the excuse of trying to put a face on all those faceless representations of the Prophet. After all, Gerald will not be wearing his ancient armour so he can't be easily recognized by Church officials if he ever stops by for a visit. (Which brings me back to COS... so I'll stop there.)

do you think Tarrant's company is corrupting him because of some fae aspect, or is it more a matter of it forcing Damien to reconsider his position on many things?

Mmmmm... corruption? I call it self-discovery as a direct result of being constantly pushed beyond your limitations. Also, this change of character is not Damien's alone. It's pretty obvious in BSR that Gerald has changed as well, and he continues to change. Add two strong personalities, a bit of hero worship, a bit of angst, a bit of ancient evil... stir well... et voilà! Character development at its finest!

[trobadora]

Which gives me so many plot bunnies... better not poke at it.

Please do poke! I'd love to see someone tackle that. :D

And it must have been a reasonably accurate drawing, too, for the Patriarch to recognize Gerald in COS!

Are you sure? He could easily have got that from the visions Calesta gave him, couldn't he?

I call it self-discovery as a direct result of being constantly pushed beyond your limitations.

Same here. :-)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

*pokes at your bunnies*

It's a pity Damien didn't wait with his pictures until he could draw them from the live model. I'm sure Gerald would have held still, if only to ensure that he was portrayed accurately.

Mmmmm... corruption? I call it self-discovery as a direct result of being constantly pushed beyond your limitations.

What makes me wonder about it is that Prophet comment about changing the nature of Evil. If Damien could have twisted him, just a little, with fae power behind it, then maybe the opposite holds true as well. Personalities come into play as well, of course - can't have no-one but each other for company for a few years and not be affected by it.

[fallintosanity.livejournal.com]

I go back and forth with myself over whether or not the seedship is still in orbit at the time of the books. I'm no rocket scientist, but I'm pretty sure all orbits decay over time, and that after 1,200 years, the seedship might well have come down. However, if it did come down, it might have simply been perceived as a particularly large meteor - there's no telling whether any record of the seedship's continued existence has passed down to Damien's generation. They know it existed in the past, but they also seem to only know that Casca sacrificed all Earth technology - so they may believe that the seedship was destroyed too.

And if it did fall, the ship may not have come down in view of the very geographically limited human populations. (I picture a human settlement size approximately equal to New England for the West and the UK and maybe a little bit of France's coastline for the East, which isn't very big at all.) I do agree with the plot bunnies, though - imagine if the seedship did come down, and Tarrant managed to find it...!

As for Damien's nightmare... Foreshadowing much? This scene lets us readers know, a book and a half before it happens, exactly what it means for Damien to resign from the priesthood. And what's absolutely fascinating is that, even after this nightmare - perhaps especially after this nightmare - Damien still does it.

Also, perhaps this is just the fangirl in me, but has anyone else seen the anime Trigun, which also has seedships with colonists who settle on a planet barely suitable to human life, who have lost much of Earth technology, and who must fight extremely powerful non-humans? :)

[trobadora]

There's apparently no FTL drive in this universe, and the seed ship's been going for thousands of years to reach Erna. I could easily believe it capable of lasting for another couple thousands, correcting its orbit.

But yeah, it really doesn't look like they're aware of the seedship at all. Shouldn't they be able to even see it, if only as a tiny light in the sky? After all, they've got those fae-enhanced farseers ...

I do want Tarrant to find it, though - hopefully someone will adopt that bunny. :D

(The bit about seedships and colonies and aliens is pretty much classic SF, isn't it? There are probably dozens of stories out there with similar themes.)

[lunabee34.livejournal.com]

Also, perhaps this is just the fangirl in me, but has anyone else seen the anime Trigun, which also has seedships with colonists who settle on a planet barely suitable to human life, who have lost much of Earth technology, and who must fight extremely powerful non-humans? :)

Yes, yes, yes! I love that show.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I know Trigun. :) It does remind me of the Coldfire trilogy in some ways.

I assume that the ship self-corrects its orbit. As long as that's the case, it could quite possibly stay up there for ages. Erna doesn't seem to have much celestial debris.

I don't know about seeing it from orbit... With all the lights they've got in the sky, though, you'd think it'd show up sometimes.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

They know it existed in the past, but they also seem to only know that Casca sacrificed all Earth technology - so they may believe that the seedship was destroyed too.

I think that kind of knowledge would be preserved. Maybe in the form of stories told to children about that ship up in the sky. At least the first generation - if the ship is still up there - would still see it, and that probably is enough to anchor the ship in oral tradition.

And what's absolutely fascinating is that, even after this nightmare - perhaps especially after this nightmare - Damien still does it.

Perhaps he would not even have seen it as an option if he hadn't been forced to think about the possibility here.

[trobadora]

Doing this properly now ...

The prologue here is the most obviously sci-fi part of the entire trilogy. Would you have liked to see more of this during the rest of the books?

Oh, absolutely. I love SF far more than fantasy, and one of the reasons I adore Coldfire so much is that it is SF, despite the fantasy trappings. I'd have loved to see more of that side of things!

I've never quite put it together at first, but - the seed ship is still in orbit, isn't it? So would it still be up there in the time of Gerald, and then later even Damien's?

I can't imagine any reason why it wouldn't be, but the knowledge seems to have been lost, which is strange considering how much knowledge Gerald clearly has about colonisation procedures. (He explains a lot when he produces that survey map in BSR, doesn't he?) And considering such a ship can't exactly be tiny, it's surprising it doesn't ever seem to be visible in the sky, despite farseers (and Gerald's telescope). *scratches head*

Still, no matter why it was forgotten, I'd love for Gerald to rediscover it!

Anyone good at maths - if they had a little more than 3000 colonists and 12 centuries, at what kind of a population size are we looking in Damien's time?

I think that depends on too many factors to make any kind of reasonable extrapolation. How many survived the first years, demons and diseases, how many lives were lost in all those wars ... I wouldn't dare make a guess, though from what we do know, the planet clearly is very thinly populated.

Casca and Tarrant are very similar in their understanding, reasoning and approach.

That's a fascinating take, and not something that occurred to me before. I'll have to give that some more thought!

When you think of the Damien we met in BSR and the Damien here, the changes in his attitude are tremendous. He used to be so black and white at the start, but now he's discovered all those shades of grey inbetween. I wonder - do you think Tarrant's company is corrupting him because of some fae aspect, or is it more a matter of it forcing Damien to reconsider his position on many things?

Considering I think the place where he ends up is an eminently sensible place to be, obviously I won't call it corruption. *g* And for the same reason, I can't ascribe it to the fae. I think Damien is simply a sensible person, and the more exposure to shades of grey, the better he deals with them. And remember, even at the very beginning he lectured the Patriarch about his black and white mentality when it comes to sorcery, so I think he was there intellectually already, for the most part, and his experiences with Tarrant taught him what that means in practice.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

And considering such a ship can't exactly be tiny, it's surprising it doesn't ever seem to be visible in the sky, despite farseers (and Gerald's telescope). *scratches head*

It would be impossible to mistake such a thing for a moon, right? I mean, I know they had occasional trouble telling apart Death Stars and moons in Star Wars, but here?

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

The seedship's programmers were long since dead, as was the culture that had nurtured them. Communication with Earth would mean waiting more than forty thousand years for an answer - and that was if Earth was there to respond, and if it would bother. What had the mother planet become, in the millennia it had taken this seedship to find a home?

I love that bit. It's so mind-bending. I've seen a lot of treatments of cryo-sleep as a sort of time travel (y helo thar Buck Rogers!), but there's something so matter-of-fact about it here that it makes it chilling all over again. The fact that Damien and Gerald's own visions of it are built on memories so distant in time they might as well be a lie...

And naturally I start wondering, "What is Earth like after all that time?" But of course that's not what the story is about.

...as this new sun's cold light was unlike the warm splendor of Sol.

Oh yeah! I'd been wondering what Erna's star looked like. I have this odd fascination with the color of stars and what they look like from the planets that orbit them, ever since it occurred to me once that the color of a star and the atmospheric makeup of a planet might change the colors of even familiar things to be completely different. Green skies? Washed-out skin? Does white become yellow under the star's light? And how would the human eye adapt to such changes in the world's palette?

It occurs to me with the details in the prologue...what do things like the fae-wards look like? If we looked at them, would we recognize symbols and letters from other languages?

The point about Casca sounding like Tarrant is a good one, but I also notice Case sounds a lot like Damien, doesn't he?

[alice_montrose]

It occurs to me with the details in the prologue...what do things like the fae-wards look like? If we looked at them, would we recognize symbols and letters from other languages?

I normally imagine them carrying symbols from different alphabets - sometimes even a mingle of different alphabets, if more symbols are required. It would be interesting to see if, for example, the kanji for "darkness" would have kept its meaning on Erna for all this time, passed down from generation to generation, while people forgot that it was actually used for non-ward related writing on Earth.

[silver-ariane.livejournal.com]

I would've liked to see more sci-fi, though I'm not sure where it'd fit in unless the characters were only making reference to it -- but that's very possible, since obviously some of them are aware of and thinking about technology and Terran knowledge quite a bit.
As a reader I would've liked more of it mostly so the ending of CoS would've come as slightly less of a surprise among all the fantasy in that book.

I'd never thought of it before, but it makes a very interesting visual of the planet if the seed ship is still in orbit, so I'm going to believe it's up there.

Anyone good at maths - if they had a little more than 3000 colonists and 12 centuries, at what kind of a population size are we looking in Damien's time?

Very small, if their growth rate is anything like Earth's, but my attempts at the equations failed repeatedly and I got numbers all over the place, from around 30,000 to the obviously unrealistic billion+. But since the equations for population growth and interest earned on investments are one and the same, I did figure out that Gerald must've racked up some serious interest in 900 years. :)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I think the sci-fi could be worked into the background more. Little things, like Damien's alarm clock, the guns, Gerald's collection of random electronic junk... if it were to show up a little more, the sci-fi bits would be more present. As it is, it's sometimes easy to see it as a pure fantasy.

But since the equations for population growth and interest earned on investments are one and the same, I did figure out that Gerald must've racked up some serious interest in 900 years. :)

Assuming there were functioning banks in his time. :-D
But he probably had the sense to start investing as soon as banks were available. Somewhere, the money to start up his brewery had to come from!

[aubrem.livejournal.com]

Hi, new reader and comm member here. I just picked up and finished the first book this past week and started When True Night Falls today. I can't believe my luck in finding this comm and this reread exactly at the point where I am. Do you have a spoiler policy? I just lightly skimmed down the comments just in case but I'd like to read them more thoroughly.

I am absoluely floored by the Damien/Hunter dynamic. It's completely captured my imagination. I'm almost afraid to read on because it's so perfect right now. People on my f'list who have read the books assure me it continues as good and that there's a treasure trove of fic waiting for me when I'm done.

Anyway, nice to meet you. Also, is there a source for icons anywhere? Ones with pithy ironic comments about fallen prophets and pious priests?

Spoiler-free

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Hey! It's always so great to meet new victims fans. :-D

I'm afraid there are spoilers about. We tend to stick to the relevant chapters for the discussion, but there occasionally are connections to later chapters. The trilogy ending especially crops up regularly (you'll see why when you get there.) That said, the discussion posts themselves will be spoiler-free (beyond the immediate chapters), and only the comments may have spoilers. So you can join us without problems - just mark your comments in some way and say you'd like to stay unspoiled, then we'll be careful with replies. You can also always go back to older posts once you've finished with the books. We still have some ongoing discussions in the BSR posts, and I daresay you'll always find someone happy to talk about anything you'd like to discuss.

Your flist is absolutely right about the contiuation of the Damien/Hunter dynamics and the fics (though most of those deal with the ending as well, so... spoilers.) If you're enjoying it now, I am sure you'll love the trilogy until the very end!

I'll wait for someone else to pick up on the icons issue - I'm hopeless where those are concerned.

Welcome, and have fun!

re-read

[shadowystar.livejournal.com]

Well, here we are with book two and I have to admit when I first read it I thought it the most boring of the three. When I re-read it, and I did, several times, I realized I missed some important things...
Now to the questions:
1) I liked the prologue, because, as I mentioned before, I knew sci-fi first before even knowing fantasy existed. So yes, I would have like some more facts about Earth back then, for example, and what made a colonization necessary. Was it war? Overpopulation? Our sun finally becoming a White Dwarf? When in OUR future is this set? BTW, the prologue reminded me very, very much of Marion Zimmer Bradley's 'The Landing', the first book of the Darcover series. It's pretty much the same situation: an unknown planet, an unplanned landing, the loss of the ship, a dangerous force...
2) I remember it being said somewhere that Erna was the last planet suitable for colonization... otherwise the ship would have to travel infinitely with all its passengers dying.
3) If the seed ship's in orbit or not isn't the point. The colonists hadn't any possibility to get there after Casca's sacrifice. Because here, again, we don't get more information it's difficult to say if it's still there. Most probably not ... but that gives me a plot bunny!!
4) To tell the current population on Erna you need a growth rate first (which we don't have). If it's positive, the population's increasing, if negative declining. Assuming that even under the best circumstances (each woman having as many children as possible) the first few centuries had a negative rate due to demons, diseases etc., I set the rate low and got approximately 720000. That's not that much but I think it fits the whole picture.
5) I, too, thought at some point that Casca was some kind of prophet, at least he saved his people even if they didn't realize it. I think the loss of Casca is significant but not because of that but because it signifies the return to violence, and in consequence, to the Dark Ages Gerald's talking about. When a person can be killed (and I don't mean in self-defense) by one other without jury and judge no matter what that person's crime was what else would you call that?
6) Pictures? Another plot bunny! Where do I hide? ;-)
7) I don't think the Hunter would use any fae for that. It's simply unnecessary. He already had become what Damien fears the most. And sometimes what you fear is also the most fascinating to you...

Re: re-read

[trobadora]

Well, here we are with book two and I have to admit when I first read it I thought it the most boring of the three.

How strange! It was always my favourite of the books, maybe because I feel it holds so well together as a whole, maybe because this one is almost exclusively Gerald and Damien beginning to end. BSR has that long first part leading up to their meeting, and CoS has Andrys ... ;-)

[nebulia.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that the idea of Damien drawing pictures of Tarrant and sending them in to the Patriarch always amuses me greatly.

A bit late and not nearly as deep as the rest of the comments on this particular part of the story, but after this chapter I always fancied Damien's day job as an artist. It seems like something he might actually be halfway decent at, in a "what the hell damien" sort of way. :D

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Given what he sketched for his report, he's probably quite practiced at drawings of creatures who tried to kill him. :-D

I can see it too, actually. As long as he sticks to pencils and stays away from brushes and colours.