Coldfire re-read: When True Night Falls - chapters 29 and 30

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

We start on the third book of WTNF tonight - we're back in civilisation, and a few new questions come up.


Plot Summary

Chapter 29 Damien uses the travel time to brood a little on the developments in the past few chapters and ponders matters of life, the universe and everything. Tarrant, from a more practical viewpoint, decides that they'll have to ditch the horses because they're something of a give-away. So they set them free, not after encouraging a bit of breeding (anyone making horse-proof fence may find themselves owning a gold mine once the breeding takes place). Once the horses are gone, our travelers rejoin civilisation, although it's a rather unwashed and seedy bit of it. Jenseny certainly isn't impressed with what she's seeing, and the idea that Damien and Hesseth intend to leave her here doesn't appeal.

Chapter 30
Damien goes on a little excurison to satisfy his curiosity, though he does it in a somewhat masochistic way. But it turns out to be all right - he discovers that despite everything that's going on, the faith of the people here isn't tarnished but still as shiny and sparkly new as when Tarrant came up with it. Which brings up a whole lot of questions to ponder in future chapters.



Quotes

• He stood in the presence of God, he reminded himself, and was rejected. He's faced the truth of his own damnation head on. Wouldn't that change a man? Shouldn't that change a man?



• He shrugged. "The species was wild once, and might be wild again. How much of its survival instinct survived the process of forced evolution? I would be lying if I said that the experiment didn't appeal to me."
  And that's the heart of it, Damien thought. Once you've started a project, you can't let go of it. This whole planet is no more than a vast experimental laboratory for you, a testing ground for your pet theories. And nothing else really matters to you, does it? Ten thousand men might be slaughtered in front of you and you wouldn't bat an eyelash, but if anyone threatened one of your precious experiments you'd move heaven and earth to destroy him. What manner of dark vanity could produce such a finely honed selfishness? It was almost beyond his comprehension.



• Life was pointless, he understood that now. All that mankind was doing on Erna was marking time, fighting for survival on a day-to-day basis while the planet grew in power and malevolence. Man's doom was inevitable, and in the shadow of such a judgment his life, his dreams, even his few accomplishments were leached of all meaning. So why go on? Why keep fighting?



• Why did he become a priest? Because the One God was a living expression of man's optimism. Because his Church was man's greatest hope - if not his only hope - on a wild and hostile planet. Because only by devoting his strength and his passion to God did Damien feel he could justify his own existence. Any other profession would have been an exercise in futility.



• "My Church thinks it's wrong," he said at last. "Sometimes I'm not so sure." He stood up slowly, one knee popping as he did so. "In the name of this quest we've done a lot of things we didn't want to do, Jenseny, and I guess we'll do a lot more. That's how it goes, sometimes. You make the best choice you can."
  "Tarrant would be proud of that argument," Hesseth said softly.
  The priest looked over at her - and something passed between them that Jenseny couldn't interpret, but it was sharp and was hot and it was filled with pain.
  "Yeah," the priest muttered. Turning away from them both. "Who the vulk do you think it was taught it to me?"



• Why would the eastern rakh invest so much time and effort in taking control of his Church, and then do nothing to alter it? What was their ultimate purpose, if not an assault on the human spirit? And what about the force that seemed to be guiding them? He could understand a demon who fed on human degradation, an Enemy whose goal it was to twist human faith toward a darker purpose . . . but that wasn't happening here. Not at all. These people were steadfast in their faith, and it showed. The very earth glowed with their dedication.

Thoughts

• I love how Damien is already pondering ways of getting Tarrant on the path of redemption, no matter how hard or even impossible it might be. It's little things like this that really emphasize it for me how important he takes his religion and his role as a priest. There are a few things in this chapter I'd like to revisit when CoS and his resignation come around, especially where the priesthood as his driving motive is concerned.



• Even with Tarrant's assumptions that the ecosystem can handle it, and Damien's absolute faith in that judgment, the horses look like quite a gamble. A large animal with a big need for food, and possibly no natural enemies here (do demons eat animals?). It sounds a litlte like the rabbits in Australia. What do you think?



• What do you think of Damien's assessment that mankind on Erna is doomed and that it's just a matter of time if the Church's project doesn't succeed? Mankind is adaptng already in adepts and in whatever Jenseny is, and they've managed to last for the first thousand odd years with a large increase in numbers. It doesn't seem to me that they're failing in any aspect save for re-creating Earth.



• Jenseny's age gives me trouble. Damien guessed her to be around thirteen, but I can't get that mental image to work for me. She feels like she's eight or even younger, and with her getting carried for reassurance and the snuggling with Hesseth, I find it hard to think of her as a teenager even physically. How old does she feel to you?



• I'll just pass on Damien's own questions from the quotes above: why did the Undying Prince and Calesta leave the Church's faith unaltered? For the Prince it would have been a prime opportunity to increase his influence when he's already undermined the entire Church structure anyway. And for Calesta, the inherent altruism isn't exactly harmless.

On Monday it's time for chapter 31, where the Damien/Gerald snark returns full force. Something to look forward to!

Comments

[trobadora]

"Yeah," the priest muttered. Turning away from them both. "Who the vulk do you think it was taught it to me?"

I would like to state for the record that I love this to itty bitty pieces. ♥

It sounds a litlte like the rabbits in Australia. What do you think?

I don't know nearly enough about the subject, so I'm happy to take Tarrant's word for it. *g*


It doesn't seem to me that they're failing in any aspect save for re-creating Earth.

Agreed. If you take it literally, this is one place where the option of adapting to the planet (as opposed to adapting it) doesn't even seem to enter into it; Damien just dismisses everything that's not an outright man-over-nature victory out of hand. IIRC when I first read it I read it on a more existential level, futility of existence in general more than specific survival on this specific planet, et omnia vanitas - but given the ending of the book I'm not so sure it wasn't to be taken literally.

Jenseny's age gives me trouble.

Not just you. She feels like 10 at the most, probably younger. Definitely a kid, not a teenager in any sense of the word.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I would like to state for the record that I love this to itty bitty pieces. ♥

You and me both. *g* They're putting new twists on the classic mentor/student relationship.

but given the ending of the book I'm not so sure it wasn't to be taken literally.

I'm leaning towards the literally, but it depends on the Church's approach, of course. Gerald, with his strict sense of Darwinism, would not have had issues with adapting to the planet (especially seeing that he's an example for it). But the Church's stance on sorcery might have expanded to rejecting things that meant adapting to the planet in other ways. Still, literally speaking they've done well - the first century or two were probably the critical ones, but after that they have built a healthy civilisation that doesn't look like it's going to crumble anytime soon (threat by Calesta excepted). The lack of sorcery at the end may actually be a bigger threat than anything before, since it kills off far too many protections they started to rely on.

[trobadora]

They're putting new twists on the classic mentor/student relationship.

I can never get enough of that!

the first century or two were probably the critical ones

Everything from the Revival onward seems to have been pretty stable, civilisation-wise. So it would have been about the first two centuries, yeah. And you know I agree about the danger the lack of sorcery presents - they're going to have to rebuild their civilisation from scratch.

[ladyphoenix9]

Horses:
This always troubled me. We can assume Tarrant's horse is genetically perfect and can do no wrong but what about Hesseth's? Only two breeding animals? I wouldn't think there would be enough diversity to get a good breeding stock going. Unless Tarrant is banking on Erna doing some corrective fixes for him while he's away, this always seemed hopeless to me.

Jenseny's age:
I took her as being emotionally stunted from her shut-in childhood, but I think 13 is also "old" here. I'm wondering if this is a Friedman quirk, as I seem to recall other youngish girl characters not acting to stated age in other books (though I can't recall specifics now, and they were also probably borderline psychotic kids too, so...normal expectations need not apply?)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Every rare-animal-themed documentary I've ever seen stresses how they need 100 breeding pairs or thereabouts to guarantee genetic diversity. And remember the beginning of WTNF, where they were worried that with all the deaths they'd lose too many people to maintain a healthy gene pool.

And still, even if it works, they might just have caused the same problem the Australians have with their huge frogs. Those sounded like a good idea too at one point.

I'm wondering if this is a Friedman quirk, as I seem to recall other youngish girl characters not acting to stated age in other books (though I can't recall specifics now, and they were also probably borderline psychotic kids too, so...normal expectations need not apply?)

Good point, I didn't think of those. Age seems somewhat ambiguous where Friedman is concerned. But with Jenseny it throws me on a purely physical level already. I know how big 13-year-olds are and I find it almost impossible to imagine some of the things she does. Not to mention that Damien occasionally carries her around with no-one seemingly wondering about it.

[ladyphoenix9]

Yep, with only two horses, there's a lot that could go wrong before they even begin to breed. And if they do breed, they're almost certainly going to need some human intervention to prevent overpopulation down the road. I saw below you cited the mustangs; there are also ponies that have reverted to feral state on Assateague Island not so far from me. Probably the only reason they aren't a huge menace by now is because humans are policing the population. It might even be a fairly similar environment, as I recall there were substantial forested sections of the park. Maybe Friedman had the Assateague ponies in mind as well, since she also lives in Virginia. The environment is more similar here to her book than it is for the mustangs.

Not to mention that Damien occasionally carries her around with no-one seemingly wondering about it.
I think I assumed Damien is manly enough to carry anybody he wants around and no one will question him. *g* But now that I think about it, she does get carried around like a five year old quite often...

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

*g* Odd coincidence - I dug up my Marguerite Henry books again after a good 15 years, and Misty of Chinconteague is on my nightstand just now.

I think I assumed Damien is manly enough to carry anybody he wants around and no one will question him.

He frequently grabs Gerald, too, so I'd agree on that. *g* But with Jenseny, I was left wondering whether something was wrong with her legs that she couldn't move normal distances. A small child having trouble to keep up - no question. But someone of teenager size... doesn't quite fit.

[rekishi]

let me answer....all of the above *g*

Damien worries me a little because priesthood is how he defines himself. Not because that's bad but because it becomes a moot point later on.

Horses:
I don't share your concerns ^^; Any of them, actually.
The ecosystem can take two horses feeding, no problem. Horses and unhorses aren't the same species, it's unlikely that they can breed, except Erna starts to intervene. If Erna does, some small scavenging animals will get a taste of horse at some point and develop into a predator quickly. Generation times for horses are much longer than they are for small animals, even small predators (think two to six fox cubs per season in good years as opposed to one foal per horse pair per year) and a foal takes at least...it's been too long since I've been around horses....two years? Three? Until it becomes fertile and then it would have to be a filly, a colt would be bitten off by his father after a little more than a year. Incest is less of a problem at this point, building a population that could hurt the ecosystem out of two or even three horses takes a while.

As for the people's gene pool, that's a bit different... There goes more wrong when you incest people than when you incest animals. There's whole species-building just by a small number of individuals being cut off and having to do on their own.

Mankind's damnation...
Now that's a more tricky one. For one, I think Damien has hit a bit of a low here, emotionally.
On the other hand, I suppose the last thousand or so years (say, since Gerald set the Church up proper) mankind has been riding a wave on its development. They learned to utilize the fae, they spread out, they even learned to live with the dangers of the Forest.

On the other hand, I do see Damien's troubles here. Uhm. With the increase in numbers (and I don't think it's beyond a few million total, may 2-3 million humans on all of Erna?) there also is an increase in demons and fae-constructs of fear and the like. People don't go out during true night, people get killed by their own nightmares still and the like. I do see his point.

I think maybe I should put it like...mankind has reached a point of critical mass. There's not much more their can gain now, they progress is limited and their numbers are still growing while constantly being threatened. I get that.

As for mankind's adaption... I'm not sure. Sure, there are Adepts. But how often do they happen? And out of those few who are born being able to see the fae, how many retain their sanity and thereby functional to do what nature intended them to do? So uhm I wouldn't quite call that adaption. Besides, it seems to happen spontaneously, or do we have accounts of any of Gerald's children being an Adept? Because that would either mean it's recessive or it's got nothing to do with genetics in the first place.

Sorry, biotalk...

Jen puzzles me, too. She seems younger than ten in any case.

No idea on why the Prince and Calesta left the Church as it was *shakes head* I'll think about that one some more.


[OT:
And I have fic idea and need a bouncer, any takers? (yeah I know this isn't the place to ask because I know none of you here but... my friend who brought me into Coldfire in the first place dumped me >>)]

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Tarrant specifically says that adeptitude does not seem to be inherited.

Good point about Damien being kind of down on things, here. It doesn't really sound like him, does it? He's normally not so pessimistic. Then again, he muses on how it's why he joined the priesthood to begin with, so maybe it's just a part of him we don't get to see much of.

Dammit, Damien, how do you manage to be more enigmatic than the Hunter?!

[rekishi]

Ah. yes. My bad, I forgot. It's been a while since I've read the books and I should reread more but I don't manage it always.

Maybe Damien is not as straight-forward a man as we thought he was? Hm.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Eh, no sweat. I've had to have people cite passages to me only a few weeks after I've read them. It's just one more service we offer, here at hunters_forest. :D

I guess he's not. But he seems so clear-cut. Yet...we already know he's a man of many hidden talents and as capable of finesse as he is brute force. How does he keep fooling us?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I was hoping for biological input on the horses. :-D
Tarrant seems to think they can breed with a bit of his tinkering, but I agree on the relatively slow growth rate. They'd need... 4-5 years? to double the population, so trouble would only start after a century or thereabouts. Which probably is why North America survived the Spanish horses.

I think maybe I should put it like...mankind has reached a point of critical mass. There's not much more their can gain now, they progress is limited and their numbers are still growing while constantly being threatened. I get that.

They are threatened, but they're adapting to their surroundings. They've got safeguards against practically all predators in place, they know how to deal with threats, and in Jaggonath they've even solved the "don't go out at night" problem except for the occasional girl getting snatched by the Hunter. Even with the increased creation power for demons, they seem to be dealing. The Church might actually be holding them back in its restrictive use of sorcery, since that's the driving force behind a lot of what lets them adapt and advance. They've got their wards against demons and quakes (and probably a number of other issues), after all.

They're doing a lot better now than before, and chances are they'll have the occasional jump in development. One seems to have been the Revival, and I'm sure Gerald isn't the only one tinkering with fae-free environments. So the next advance might not be too far in coming.

Besides, it seems to happen spontaneously, or do we have accounts of any of Gerald's children being an Adept? Because that would either mean it's recessive or it's got nothing to do with genetics in the first place.

I'm convinced he'd have mentioned that at some point. Adepts seem to crop up randomly, but according to Gerald, it happens more often now than it did in his time, when he was one of the first. If Adepts are still a case of one in a few thousand or more, then a recessive gene could be the case, couldn't it? Since you'd need two adepts to breed, and even then it's a less than 100% chance? (Sorry, my genetics knowledge is very outdated by now.)

Jen puzzles me, too. She seems younger than ten in any case.

Absolutely. Arya Stark from Song of Ice and Fire would wipe the floor with her, and she's only eight...

(For fic idea bouncing, feel free to poke me. I've got pretty much all contact methods listed in my profile, so just grab whatever looks convenient.)

[rekishi]

Gerald is certainly more knowledgeable on the biology of Erna than me, I give him that. I'm just saying from a purely Earth pov, were they here they couldn't. Too different. I mean -> horses and donkeys, close but too far apart of fertile breeding, mules are sterile. Species distinction is...flowing though. And reproductive biology sucks. I'm surprised Gerald invested in it at all.

Wards for sure and I guess those which are properly Worked do their job but if every human only spawns two fae-constructs with his nightmares or fears... I see exponential growth. And then we also have the trouble with the drugs which were mentioned in BSR. Also... There's enough sects and demi-gods and the like, if only one had enough followers and an end-of-all-times idea, aye.......

That said though, I guess there is a truth about the stance on sorcery but that does seem to be different in the Western Autarchy. I wish we knew more about that one..

Anyway, what I meant with progress was stuff like... Electricity, steam engines... Matters of convenience rather than survival which only have become essential for survival but are also essential for a certain further progress. Else humanity on Erna might well devour itself at some point. And as I said, I think Damien is kind of down here, so his mood might affect his thinking even further.

Of course Adepts are more common now, there's a hell of a lot more people now *g* Also, with more Adepts born more Adepts will survive, too. You can't say someone is an Adept until it does become clear in some way so not even Gerald can know exact numbers. Maybe the number of Adepts per thousand births hasn't changed at all, people are just either quicker on the uptake now than a thousand years ago or less of the children die now before it can become clear. Never disregard child-mortality, it's a crucial factor. So more children overall survive -> more Adepts, even though not more are really born. Gerald can only track and Know what had the chance to make an impression and only on the currents available to him but the Forest doesn't sit on a fault line or anything.

and yes, recessive genes -> two carriers of the recessive gene need to come together to produce an offspring with the trait the recessive gene encodes, the chance for that happening is 25% is the gene is on a normal chromosome and up to 50% if it's on a sex chromosome (which is why men are more often haemophile or red-green-blind, both are X-linked).

but as prettyarbitrary said Gerald stressed that it wasn't genetic. so it's not an adaptation per se.

Arya is not a normal eight year old. Arya is a Stark, we can't really compare her to normal eight year olds ;)

(Heeeeh thank you! I will keep in mind. I have...possibly 10-20k left on my Merlin/XF crossover (no, I refuse to comment on that, I was made to write it with Very Evil Bunnies by my lovely beta who is currently finishing up with the epic) but I already have a whole page of notes and two lines of dialogue but I can't write ff if I can't bounce ideas off of someone, I'm like House there. Anyway that won't take too long anymore, maybe a week or so. Then Coldfire. Would be post-trilogy, btw.)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

And reproductive biology sucks. I'm surprised Gerald invested in it at all.

It's an opportunity to show off, and after a second look at the passage I can't help but notice that he doesn't promise results, just hints at the possibility. Trying to impress someone, is he?

Electricity, steam engines... Matters of convenience rather than survival which only have become essential for survival but are also essential for a certain further progress. Else humanity on Erna might well devour itself at some point.

Okay, from that angle I see your point, though it also makes me wonder whether the fae can't replace some of it. Steam engines seem to be around on a small scale (there's one on that ship Damien and Gerald "borrow" in CoS), but I doubt that would work reliably on land with all the fae influence. Cracking fae control is the pivotal issue for them, so Damien has a point after all.

I'd love to know whether they could have shucked the Earth-based preconceptions and develop Erna-based solutions. With all they do and all the adaptations, they're still following what they know to a very large extent rather than working with what the planet offers.

So more children overall survive -> more Adepts, even though not more are really born. Gerald can only track and Know what had the chance to make an impression and only on the currents available to him but the Forest doesn't sit on a fault line or anything.

Point taken - it really isn't an environment for reliable statistic demographic surveys. And if Gerald says it's not genetic, then there's not much I can argue anymore. :-)

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I think the horse thing was a bit facile. Horses are a steppe/plains animal. In forest ecologies, their hard hooves can do a lot of harm to the environment. But really, expecting Friedman to read up just to support a throwaway line is a bit much, so I'm willing to accept the statement for what it is. Anyway, horses don't breed anywhere near as fast as rabbits and, all other things being equal, there's at least one natural predator living in the area. Humans would undoubtedly be able to control the horse population, if it ever takes off in the first place--especially if they (re)discover the qualities of horses as pack and riding animals.

I can't see Jenseny as 13 either. I can accept that she was very sheltered and a bit...well, weird, so her emotional development might be stunted, but with the carrying and everything...*shrug*

I imagine the Undying Prince left the Church unaltered because he didn't want to rock the boat? Maybe having control over it was enough power for him. He doesn't seem to hunger for power so much as immortality, so perhaps he only did it in the first place in order to secure his comfort and safety. We never really get an answer to that, do we?

What do you think of Damien's assessment that mankind on Erna is doomed and that it's just a matter of time if the Church's project doesn't succeed?

I found this one of the most interesting bits in the whole series. Humanity seems to be doing well enough. We don't get exact numbers--or even real approximations--of the human population, but I always figured it at least around a couple million--thin on the ground, certainly, but nowhere close to a threatened population. But then, we don't know, do we? We don't know how big cities like Jaggonath actually are. Are they large in the sense of a true metropolis, or just in comparison to the muddy little settlements found elsewhere? How thickly settled is the eastern continent? How much of the population could be wiped out in a single earthquake or eruption?

So the idea that humans live that close to the edge on Erna is an interesting thought. Yet again, it makes me wonder how much we don't see. How much of a threat are demons, really? How thin are human populations outside of a few clusters like Mercia or Jahanna?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I actually stumbled across a documentary on mustangs this morning, and seeing that North America survived an influx of horses, I retract the question. :-) Though it has made me look into calculating population growth rates once again.

He doesn't seem to hunger for power so much as immortality, so perhaps he only did it in the first place in order to secure his comfort and safety. We never really get an answer to that, do we?

I don't think so, no. We get that he's after immortality, but what he actually wants to do with that and why he thought taking over Mercia & Co is so necessary...

It's hard to make guesses with the population size, but even if I assume a very low growth rate to take death-by-demon into account, up to a billion people look realistic after 13 centuries. They've certainly increased in numbers from the handful of thousand that comprised the landing crew, or they'd never have settled three continents - I imagine that was done partly by a need for discovery but also because of population density.

If anyone wants to tinker with it, this page (http://www.metamorphosisalpha.com/ias/population.php) has a population growth calculator, and Wiki gives the current population growth rate by country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_growth_rate).