Coldfire re-read: When True Night Falls - looking back at Book 3 and WTNF as a whole

[trobadora]

We're through - evil princes have been vanquished, side characters have been disposed of, and Tarrant and Damien are safely (?) on their way back. Time to look back at book three!

Discussion Posts

Here are all our discussion posts for WTNF:

Book 1 (with links to all Book 1 discussion posts)
Book 2 (with links to all Book 2 discussion posts)

Book 3:
Chapters 29-30
Chapter 31
Chapters 32-33
Chapter 34
Chapters 35-36
Chapter 37
Chapter 38
Chapter 39
Chapters 40-42
Chapters 43-44
Chapters 45-46
Chapter 47-48
Chapter 49 & epilogue

Some Thoughts

Now's the time to bring up anything about this book that you've been thinking about, anything you've been meaning to say but haven't found the right occasion yet. Anything goes!

Here are a few thoughts to get us started:

A few of us have already started discussing this in the comments to the last discussion post, but how do you feel about this book's ending? Does it work for you? How plausible is it that after everything he's done, that one divining is what finally breaks Tarrant's compact with the Unnamed?

The end of the book leaves quite a lot open. Now, I read the three books in three days, so I didn't really have any time to speculate in between, but I do wonder what I'd have thought and expected from the third book. If you can recall your own first reading: Looking forward from here, what was on your mind? Where did you imagine things would go?

Moving on to WTNF as a whole - now that we've read and discussed both of them chapter by chapter, how do you think it compares to BSR? Better? Worse? Holding together well? (I make no secret of the fact that WTNF is my favourite book of the trilogy precisely because I do think it holds together best as a single narrative, whereas the other two don't seem nearly as stringent and unified to me.)

After BSR, a lot of us said that we'd have liked to see more of the "real" Ciani with all her memories intact. Who's the character from WTNF you'd most have liked to see more of? Who could you have done without? Personally, I love Hesseth and think she was shortchanged not only by the novel as a whole - she had so little to do! - but also by the way she was killed off, having so little effect. She deserved better. *grumbles* With Jenseny's story, on the other hand, I'm completely satisfied - while I'd have liked to see more interaction between her and Tarrant, it didn't fit the story, and it all worked very well for me. Despite the whole child saviour thing. *g*)

We'll be taking a bit of a break before we delve into Crown of Shadows - time for some of you to catch up, maybe, if you haven't had the time to keep up with the schedule! Remember, older discussion posts always remain open; feel free to commment there any time. :-)

Comments

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

The ending is what left me most dissatisfied about WTNF. It's so much of a deus ex machina that it just isn't believable. Seeing Gerald lose control like that, in a hostile environment with a potential enemy and someone he badly needs and wants to impress? No way. He'll throw tantrums around Damien, but never in public.

And like we said in the last post, why is the Divining so bad? He's sharing a vision, nothing more. Toshida, who's lived a life with no Workings, has no clue just what it is he is seeing, and the only relevant bit to turn him to the good side is a flicker among thousands. With no-one telling him what just hit him, it's a million-to-one chance that he'll pick the right path. Besides, what else was the outcome of the meeting with him supposed to do but set him right and make him fix the mistakes his people were making? It's not like Gerald wasn't going into this planning to save that civilisation. So he has no reason to be so shocked by the outcome.

There. Had to be said. *g*

With Hesseth, I don't have enough about her to tease me into wanting to know more. She's a character who never really interested me, and I don't really care much about her. Who I'd love to have gotten more of than here and later in the CoS first chapter is Sisa. Just what kind of a background does she have that being the Hunter's travel snack is preferable? What plans is she making for herself? And what sort of character does it take to have the guts to go along with it even after she knew what it entails? Damien went into the food-providing not knowing what it would be like, but she already knew and still did it. It would have been great if she hadn't been scheduled for such an early exitus and if we'd gotten a bit more about her here. *makes note for next Yuletide*

Jenseny and Tarrant - I'd love an AU where she goes back with them. A tiny little apprentice for him (you just know he wants to know everything about how her power works and study and make notes and do research about it) and someone for Damien to worry about who's less prickly. The snark could have been phenomenal.

[trobadora]

And like we said in the last post, why is the Divining so bad?

Maybe because he can't rationalise it as a selfish act? After all, it's all about self-perception with the fae. If he believes it breaks his compact, it does.

Still. I know! It really doesn't quite work, does it? *g*

I did love Hesseth, but Sisa would have been interesting to see more of as well. Her role is very small in this book, and in the next one she's disposed of before the story even starts. :(

But hell, any character is more interesting if you combine them with Tarrant. Ciani, Hesseth, Jenseny, Narilka, Sisa, Damien ... :D (Seriously, though, I'd have loved to see all those female characters' dynamic with Tarrant explored more. A shame!)

Someone definitely needs to write the Jenseny-as-Tarrant's-apprentice AU, though!

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Maybe because he can't rationalise it as a selfish act? After all, it's all about self-perception with the fae. If he believes it breaks his compact, it does.

Good point. But I'm still not sure about the difference between the Divining and going to see Toshida at all. What was he planning, if not to set him on the right course? Did it not occur to him that it was a dangerous path? For someone so practiced at walking a fine line, it seems odd.

One thing that occurs to me from your character list is that there are quite a large percentage of female support characters. We get the main male couple, of course, but the backup is dominated by women.

*bats eyelashes at writers* Does anyone feel up to adopting a bunny?

[trobadora]

But I'm still not sure about the difference between the Divining and going to see Toshida at all.

Not arguing with that!

the backup is dominated by women

Hm ... Senzei, the Patriarch, Andrys, Karril, Calesta, Amoril, Toshida ... it seems pretty well-balanced, actually.

[rekishi]

Gerald could rectify going to see Toshida to make sure Damien doesn't get thrown into some prison again. Because without Damien, Gerald has scant chance to get back home and I have a feeling he's not so keen on staying there. Hence, selfish notion. With the Divining though that is impossible, hence his predicament.

Far fetched, I know ;)

[trobadora]

And what's more, we shouldn't have to work so hard to explain away the plot holes! Gah.

(I love these books, really I do. Which is why I want them to be perfect, dammit! *g*)

[shadowystar.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I kind of dropped out of discussion... life and work got in the way!

As for the question of that Divining, well, we know Gerald walks a thin line between what the Unnamed Ones want or expect him to do and what he needs to do to keep his soul out of their reach (and probably to stay sane, too). A factor I can think of here might be that not what is actually done counts but how evil Gerald thinks it to be. Or how against the rules. As in when the intention was evil, the deed is evil, too. What's, of course, nonsense, because one could intend evil and get contrary results as well as one can intend good and the result's not so good. I think, with that Divining Gerald mostly did for Damien, he can't come up with a nice evil intention... and gets scared. And furthermore, since the Unnamed Ones live and thrive of such things as terror, fear etc., they can perceive it in Gerald as well. Were he full of confidence, maybe they wouldn't have looked deeper and their reaction would have been different.

This dichotomy between intention and physical deed is, in fact, what Damien uses during that trip to Hell, his argumentation being that all what Gerald ever did was to stay alive so he could continue to serve the Unnamed Ones. Since they bought that, it must be valid. And I like it here that is Damien who comes up with that idea... firstly, because we see how clever he is, and secondly, because the dilemma whether or not to save the Hunter lessens here, the decision to actually do it is made more quickly and almost without reservation, unlike what we see in BSR in the fire episode.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I totally lost the thread too for a few months. Shadowystar isn't alone!

I'm torn on the whole Divining issue. On one hand, it really doesn't seem like him to forget himself like that. On the other...if it was ever going to happen, that's probably how. He's confronted by an intelligent man's willful stupidity and just gets fed up so he decides to show him just what a waste his stubbornness will come to. How many of us wouldn't have done that if we'd had the ability?

Now, that doesn't really constitute a motive for "good deeds," but on the other hand, it's one moment of reckless irritation that could (probably will) result in the salvation of a continent full of lives, and if I were him, I wouldn't really have a good way to beg off on that if the Devil came calling. Tarrant could try to justify it by saying it combats his enemy (who'd still win the whole continent if they went on with the witch burning and all), but he knows that's not why he did it.

I love this book. It may be my favorite of the three, as well. It's interesting to see the new continent, we get a better view of Ernan life here, and the Prince comes close to being an interesting enemy (too bad he didn't get more screen time). And, of course, we have the evolution of Damien and Tarrant's relationship.

[trobadora]

Yeah, it's absolutely plausible for Tarrant to snap at that kind of willful blindness. I just still feel his guilt at that, his immediate OMG-what-have-I-done reaction, is in any way equal to the cause. The Unnamed likely just reacts to his feelings of guilt, but the feelings themselves seem ... OTT. I don't know. Maybe you're right and it's enough that he doesn't have an easy justification ...

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I don't think he feels guilty so much as terrified. I think he's actually being absolutely honest with Damien (who also puts forth the argument that it was an insignificant and accidental sort of thing): he has no idea whether it was a big enough issue for the Unnamed to even care, but it might, and that possibility has him completely freaking.

And like I said, honestly I don't think the Unnamed even notices till Calesta hunts it up and rats Tarrant out in the next book. I think it's pretty much one of those things where a good employee screws up, but everybody kind of agrees to turn a blind eye because we all make mistakes...till somebody brings it up and then the bosses are like, "Well, damn, now we have to make an example out of them..."

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

It's interesting, though, in that Tarrant is completely over-reacting here, but I think we're seeing the depth of his fear of death (and, well, Hell). Nothing else has ever managed to put a real dent in his composure, but this has him close to losing it.

[trobadora]

but this has him close to losing it

Yes, that's exactly it - it's such a far cry from any reaction we've seen from him before, and I can't for the life of me figure out the big difference.

[trobadora]

He's terrified, yes, but what makes him even think it would be an issue to the Unnamed, when nothing else he has done so far has elicited even a fraction of that response? I do feel there's some amount of (misplaced?) guilt there to trigger it ... though buggered if I can work out why.

I take your point about Calesta. That does make sense to me if I recall that scene correctly.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Well, Tarrant's good at coming up with rationales for actions he wants to take ("No, no, any feeding of starving orphans that happens due to this is completely a by-product of my intended goal!"), but he's not in the habit of lying to himself. So he's probably confronting himself quite honestly with the fact that this happened for no good reason other than that he had a fit of wanting to rectify a bit of stupidity in the world. Maybe it's a matter of "What do I tell them if they happen to show up?" And there isn't much he can say, really: pretty much nothing bad can result from it other than things that would've happened anyway if he hadn't interfered.

You know, though, now that you ask about it, I bet he is kind of happy about having done it on some level. If his Divining takes hold, Toshida is a talented, cool guy (a bit like Tarrant himself) with the ability to redeem the eastern Church and lead a continent of people to a better future. And I doubt that Tarrant can resist being pleased at that.

Though I still want to know how he explained the backpack to himself.

[trobadora]

Yes, the backpack is far more inexplicable! *g*

And I think you've hit on it - maybe it's not so much that he did it, but despite the fact that he knows he shouldn't have he can't help being pleased by the result. That might explain it ...