Coldfire re-read: Crown of Shadows - chapters 3 & 4

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

A little earlier than usual, here's today's discussion post for chapters 3 and 4, with a rare Hunter POV chapter and a look at the Patriarch.


Plot summary

Chapter 3
The Hunter returns home, and takes his time to check whether any unwelcome demons have been trespassing. He can't find anything, so he lets himself be comforted by the normalcy of dark fae currents, weird albino servants, and mortally terrified women. If only he had an easy way to wash off that irritating taint of Vryce-ish goodness from his soul, and a Wikipedia entry on Iezu lore, the night would have been perfect.

Chapter 4
The Patriarch has started to have the sort of nightmares to rival Damien's, only without the Hunter having any direct hand in it. He now spends his nights as an elderly superhero in priestly get-up, rushing through the dark streets to rescue people from religious mobs. In true superhero fashion, he fails at tragic moments to inspire drama and angst, but also succeeds at times to keep morale up. This time all works out, and just as he gets back to the Batcave, he receives the news that Vryce is back.



Quotes

• He could feel the force of the Forest's fae coursing through his veins like blood, even from this height, invigorating him body and soul. Let Calesta test him now, with all his power at hand, and that Iezu would see how quickly and how ruthlessly the Hunter dealt with his enemies.



• Had it really been less than three years ago that he had lived this isolated life, surrounded by nothing but his trees and his servants and his precious experiments? Would that he could simply reclaim that life, and let the darkness of the Forest heal him of all the wounds the living world had inflicted!



• Afterward, he promised himself. When all this is over, when Calesta is neutralized and my compact defended and Vryce has gone off to make a separate fate from mine ... then I will have the time and the leisure to find myself again. To define myself anew, on such terms that living men may never again compromise my spirit.



• God willing, when this all was over he would have a chance to establish himself anew and cleanse the taint of Vryce's human spirit from his soul.



• "I left them impaled on tree limbs, in such a posture that implied the trees might have more volition than Mordreth gives them credit for." His eyes sparkled redly. "They'll think twice before fetching their axes again."
  "Excellent," he approved. And it was. A taste of normalcy, after so many months of tension.



• Once Calesta was safely out of the picture there'd be time enough to teach Amoril the fine points of a Cleansing, and to see that he received sufficient practice in its use.



• There, on shelves stacked ten feet high, were accumulated all his notes from the last five hundred years. Would that I had begun this work earlier! He withdrew a volume of demonological data and handed it to Amoril. Would that I had understood, in the arrogance of my youth, just how much memory can be lost after nine hundred years.



• He would have given anything for Ciani of Faraday's notebooks right now; she had specialized in that demonic family, and must have uncovered countless bits of lore in her many years of study. But she was in the rakhlands now, and all her notebooks were ash. Not for the first time, he cursed Senzei Reese for his damnable shortsightedness. Better to shed human blood for sacrifice - even one's own-than destroy such treasures as that.



• How good it was to be home again, where women were raised to fear him! How good it was to have five centuries of the Hunter's reputation to draw upon, to lend flavor to an otherwise quick snack.



• This was a nightmare of clairvoyance, a forced voyeurism that made him witness to the evils of his world without giving him the power to change anything.



• He burst into the temple, so filled with righteous indignation that the fae surrounding him seemed to take fire, lighting the air about his head like a halo.



• What did they see when they looked at him, adorned in all the glory of his faith? A ruler of priests, fit counselor for kings. Little short of a god himself, by their pagan standards; certainly a god's favored messenger. That such a man should come in person to quell their riot was a thing to be wondered at; that such a man should save their idol and defend their faith was a thing past comprehension.
  And that is the difference between us, he thought. That is it exactly.



• Have you forgotten that our greatest enemy is not a foreign idol or even a foreign god, but the very force that gives this planet life? Our most sacred duty is to preserve our human identity, and if we fail in that, all the prayers ever voiced won't win this world salvation.



• The Prophet was right, when he said that faith was the most powerful force on Erna. He looked at the pagan emblems on the wall and shook his head sadly. If only we could harness it in unity, as he intended.



• With a dry smile the Patriarch greeted him. "Some new problem, is it? Don't worry, my son. There's not much you can say to me now that will make this night any worse.”
  "Vryce is back," the man said quietly.
  For a moment he just stared at him. Then, with a deep sigh, he rubbed his temples again.
  "Yeah," he muttered. 'That did it."

Thoughts

• Why pick Amoril as an apprentice? At the very least, his ideas of hygiene seem to be repulsive to Gerald, so why not take someone else? He's been quite taken with Ciani, and in a way he's even apprenticed Damien (on a religious rather than a fae-working level, at least). These two seem much more likely to please him than a creature like Amoril. Ciani might not even have had much trouble with the Hunter's habits, and someone like Damien would have presented a permanent challenge rather than blind subservience.



• One thing I appreciate about Gerald is his attitude towards books and knowledge. He knows them for the treasures they are, and he knows what's lost when something is destroyed or not recorded at all.



• Gerald clearly would have been happy to stay in his Forest and tinker with new insect species rather than accompany Damien on trips and risk the darkness of his soul along the way. If Calesta had kept his creatures under tighter control and prevented them from attacking Ciani, he could have saved himself a lot of trouble due to the Hunter not getting involved.



• I'm not a big fan of the Patriarch, but I like his POV chapters because they give a lot of insight into the Church and the Prophet. Under different circumstances, he and Gerald could have had great conversations.



• Why does the Patriarch not recognize that his dreams are Divinings? I'm guessing that it would be obvious to any fae user. And even with Workings being forbidden by the Church, he's an educated man and surely he's informed about at least the basics.



• The final lines of this chapter never fail to make me smile. Damien does leave lasting impressions on people he meets.

On Thursday we tackle chapters 5 and 6 - Andrys goes and embarrasses himself in public, Damien confesses his sins to the Patriarch, and Narilka dreams of the Hunter. Come join us!

Comments

[alice_montrose]

and a Wikipedia entry on Iezu lore

Sure, go right ahead and have me rolling on the floor in hysterics. Why not, right?

Poor Patriarch, he has to play superhero at his age and just when he thought he'd be rid of that pest named Vryce... POOF! There he is again! There's no getting rid of the man, how irritating!

... hey, the Patriarch and the Hunter have something else in common! I approve! (Though I doubt they do...)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Sure, go right ahead and have me rolling on the floor in hysterics. Why not, right?

You can't deny that it would have been a great convenience!

Damien is simply un-riddable. Gerald may want to look at this phenomenon closely to figure out his secret and whether it can be applied to others.

[alice_montrose]

It would have. And I suspect Ciani would have been responsible for most of the edits, if not all. Then Ciani would have gotten annoyed with this GT who kept editing her edits... and a flame war would have ensued.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Then Ciani would have gotten annoyed with this GT who kept editing her edits... and a flame war would have ensued.

Somehow I have the feeling that flame wars on Erna look slightly different than they do here. With more real flames, at least when adepts are involved.

[alice_montrose]

Real flames on Ciani's part, no doubt. Coldfire on Gerald's, though I'm pretty sure in the end both would get banned from Ernapedia. Ciani for insisting her entries on the Iezu are being "corrupted" on purpose, and the mysterious GT because his edits on those Dark Fae, Forest and Hunter entries. Because his claims, while having entertaining value, must surely indicate him as a deeply deranged individual. The Forest, a true ecosystem? The dark fae, workable? The Hunter and The Prophet being the same person? What is this GT on, anyway? Surely not blackout...

[trobadora]

*falls over laughing*

[alice_montrose]

Hey, I made someone laugh! Cool! *feels accomplished*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Edit undone: citation needed.

Over in the discussion: No, the Hunter's library doesn't qualify as a reliable source!

[alice_montrose]

Just so! Of course, "GT" could always cite the works of a loremaster. This elderly (???) gentleman by the name of Tarrant would be conveniently located somewhere near the Forest, and in contact with one Amoril, who is supposedly his inside source to all Hunter-related gossip.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

And as everybody knows, gossip is not to be cited in Ernapedia. Only reliable information may be used. So unless "GT" can prove that his facts are actually facts, I suggest he be banned from editing.

(At that point I expect the discussion partners to suffer an early demise.)

[alice_montrose]

Except for Ciani, because Karril would have ensured her survival by then. Of course, that does not mean GT would not give the dear lady a tour of the Forest, just to make his point...

[rekishi]

*slowly crawls back on the chair from falling off of it laughing so hard*
*wipes away tears*
oh dear, the two of you will be the death of me one day, right?

Ernapedia...
i'm tempted to make that unrealized reality

[alice_montrose]

I promise we'll have some serious theological discussions in later posts. Never let it be said we're not responsible mods!

But in the mean time, let it be noted that I'm still high on ibuprofen, so I can't be held responsible for the insanity and bunnies flying around! XD

[rekishi]

(love the icon)

ibuprofen makes you high? man i'd not be able to function then ^^;

[alice_montrose]

(Thank you!)

It does when I have a migraine and I abuse the 600mg pills. However, this is not relevant to the discussion here, as I am sure there is no ibuprofen on Erna, and we all know "GT" gets high on, um, other things. Like, erm, fear and terror and occasionally blood. ^^;;;

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

One thing I appreciate about Gerald is his attitude towards books and knowledge. He knows them for the treasures they are, and he knows what's lost when something is destroyed or not recorded at all.
Yeah, me too ^_^ Such a giant nerd.

Why pick Amoril as an apprentice?
I kind of wonder too. They make a very odd pair as teacher and apprentice.

Why does the Patriarch not recognize that his dreams are Divinings?
I don't think they are divining. Just illusions of faraway events shaped into dreams by Calesta.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

If they had geeks on Erna, he'd be one. He's even collecting parts of computer chips!

I kind of wonder too. They make a very odd pair as teacher and apprentice.

I can see why he'd go for the sort of peculiarness of the Forest, but with Amoril, all that seems to happen is that Gerald gets irritated. Why bother? Surely more "normal" people must occasionally show up and want to apprentice themselves to the Hunter. Ciani had no issues with it.

I don't think they are divining. Just illusions of faraway events shaped into dreams by Calesta.

I wondered about that, but I'm not sure. He gets to prevent too many things - maybe it's a mix of Calesta-induced hallucinations and proper Divinings as a reaction to his need to fix things? The fae would respond to him on a subconscious level, after all.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

lol

Well, it is true that when Ciani apprenticed herself to him, she was in a pretty peculiar situation and pretty much ready to grasp at any straws. But I agree he should be able to find a more sane person relatively easily. Perhaps it is that nobody else dared to find the Hunter for that purpose, and Tarrant didn't go looking by himself, I dunno. In general we get the feeling that the Hunter has a lot of servants in the beginning, but then we don't see anyone than Amoril. It's all very weird.

Your theory seems plausible with what we know of the Patriarch, I just don't remember that the text gave us this as an explanation.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Ciani's situation is special, of course. But she still had her personality and her need for knowledge, and I suspect she might have made a similar decision if she'd been at full capacity. But surely there must be a fae-user out there somewhere who both doesn't balk at the idea of apprenticing to the Hunter and knows about basic hygiene.

Isn't it the sign of a perfect servant that he's never seen? :-)

Your theory seems plausible with what we know of the Patriarch, I just don't remember that the text gave us this as an explanation.

Same here - I usually skip the Patriarch chapters, I admit. But I can't remember either whether the visions are purely Calesta-based.

[ladyphoenix9]

But I can't remember either whether the visions are purely Calesta-based.

Coming up later, the Patriarch says something to the effect of "a demon cutting open my head and putting dreams inside." It's after Gerald drops off his little present, so it's still debatable whether or not that's true or Gerald was making doubly sure the Patriarch was not going to trust those dreams. I think the Calesta-mix is probably the best explanation...some truth and some exaggeration.

[shadowystar.livejournal.com]

I don't think they are divining.
I do think they are. I just think the Patriarch doesn't know about being an Adept and even if he would he would be denying it with all he has. Remember the story about his mother?

BTW, sorry for long absence! Just had lots and lots of work to do, got wrapped up in another fandom, irritated one of my many cousins by writing a fic for it... oh boy, that was so fun! *chuckles* Alright, I'll try to concentrate more on the topic here. And on not writing for any other fandom, unless I finish three of my CF fics. Big time promise! ;)

They make a very odd pair as teacher and apprentice.
Hmmm, kind of, yes... I just think Gerald's ego needed someone like Amoril. He probably would find it amusing to teach Amoril and feed on Amoril's terror, hate and that strange kind of worship.

One thing I appreciate about Gerald is his attitude towards books and knowledge.
As a book lover I agree completely. It makes Gerald again different from many villains in other fantasy/sci-fi where most of them are dumb if not outright stupid and hungry for power. I'm so sick and tired of evil incarnate well, without specification, if I may put it that way.
Gerald doesn't desire that kind of power or don't you think he could have it anytime he wanted to? Gerald prefers that fleeting kind of power that comes with short time control over a single person...

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I remember the Patriarch's ability with fae (did you guys decide he was an Adept? I always wondered about it because I don't remember book going out and saying so. Damien calls him a natural sorceror in BSR IIRC), but do you remember how those 'divinings' were used pretty specifically in order to foil Damien & Gerald?

Hmmm, kind of, yes... I just think Gerald's ego needed someone like Amoril. He probably would find it amusing to teach Amoril and feed on Amoril's terror, hate and that strange kind of worship.
Hmmm that could be an explaination, although even there I'm surprised he wouldn't pick someone more fitting to Gerald's idea of aesthetics and sophistication for such a purpose.

[alice_montrose]

did you guys decide he was an Adept?

This should have come up in the discussion for CoS chapter 8. Basically, Gerald says: "And more than once I saw a sorceror at the head of the Church, a man whose power was equal to my own, who might lead that body down the one safe path among millions." And then the discussion goes on about the Patriarch. A sorceror with a power to equal Gerald's would have to be an Adept, right? And then there's chapter 10, though I suppose we're all set to discuss that in the next post this week.

But I doubt the dreams are Divinings. At least, not yet. Not until he accepts Gerald's gift for knowledge.

[ladyphoenix9]

This was my first introduction to the Patriarch many moons ago, so I was really rooting for him. The change from the first book to the third is quite marked, for the better.

He really could have been someone to work with Damien and Tarrant against Calesta. Alas! Damien never would have allowed Tarrant to make it work before they set off on that little boat trip and the topic never came up again until this book...

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

He really could have been someone to work with Damien and Tarrant against Calesta. Alas! Damien never would have allowed Tarrant to make it work before they set off on that little boat trip and the topic never came up again until this book...

And even here Damien is still balking at the mere idea. :-)

I find it deeply ironic that the Patriarch is a hardline opposer of fae use, when he uses it himself on a daily basis, just unconsciously. He'd never have gotten to his position without it. In a way he's an alternate version of the Prophet, or what would have become of the Prophet if he'd agreed to the 'no fae use' stipulations.

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

I actually really like the Patriarch... *hides* Probably because my first introduction to him was also in this book, but I find it way easier to empathise with him than Damien...Its not that I dont like Damien exactly but his too perfect in a way. Just impossible to relate to. The Patriarch has exactly the right blend of flawed integrity to make him really interesting, and I always admired the courage to remain entirely true to his ideals, without exception. I guess he always seemed like a more interesting version of Dumbledore- the moral integrity figure, but with demons of his own. Also it always interested me the almost symbolic similarity between him and Gerald Tarrant, I mean to all extents and purposes he would have been the prophet if he hadnt fell... *cant wait the chapter with their confrontation*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I've always found the Patriarch to be too rigid in his ways. Damien starts out with similar views, but we get to see how he leaves his happy black and white world and accepts that there are shades of grey (and a lot of them). The Patriarch, for me, never quite reaches that point because he sticks to his ideals so firmly. He's willing to sacrifice everything just to stay true to his principles, and that's too close to fanatism for me.

You know, I'd compare Damien a lot more to Dumbledore than I would the Patriarch. Dumbledore seems a lot more morally flexible than him. ;-)

[rekishi]

slowly making my way backwards I suppose *sighs*

Amoril is a weird guy. then again, maybe Gerald didn't care too much prior to Damien showing up with his human taint and all, Gerald probably walked from his bedroom (coffin? Oo) to his lab and back and didn't care much about the rest of the castle, even though he knew what was going on. But as long as he didn't stumble over any of Amoril's....droppings he might have just ignored the whole matter. And even in a replica of Merentha castle there are bound to be servant passages that the lord wouldn't necessarily look into even if he was the thoughtful kind.

I wonder if Gerald wouldn't have gotten involved ultimately but in a much different way. After all, wasn't Calesta planning to subterfuge with the Church all along? and the Church is Gerald's baby as much as Andrys is (now that is disturbing thought right there...). but Calesta wouldn't have had to deal with the dynamic duo of Gerald and Damien combined, which was probably what was crucial. he might have succeeded if he had just gone about it differently.

as for the Patriarch, I suppose he doesn't even entertain the possibility that they could be Divining like he doesn't entertain the possibility that he has any direct influence on the fae at all. he ignores his gift, as Damien observes more than once, why should he change that view for his dreams?

imagine the Patriarch and Gerald on tv, having theological discussions. would be a hoot!

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I agree, Gerald probably ignored the servants to a large extent during his regular, happily uninterrupted unlife pre-Damien. But still, something must have made him pick Amoril in the first place. I'm starting to think Amoril camped outside the walls and shouted until Gerald got irritated enough to do anything just to shut him up.

I wonder if Gerald wouldn't have gotten involved ultimately but in a much different way.

I'm sure he would have, but at what point? The Hunter was fairly isolationist, so he might not have become aware of it all before it was too late. Calesta could have had the entire western continent as his power base, and everyone who's ever played Risk knows how valuable that is *g*.

imagine the Patriarch and Gerald on tv, having theological discussions. would be a hoot!

I know I'd tune in!