Coldfire re-read: Crown of Shadows - chapters 5 and 6

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

It's that time of the week again! Today we watch Andrys faint, and Damien get shouted at.


Plot Summary
Chapter 5
Andrys bravely returns to the silversmith's workshop to fawn over Narilka a little more, only to leave a really un-favourable impression when he's asked to try on the armour he's commissioned. And even Narilka's employer has caught on by now that she's got bad luck with her men - the most recent ones having been a drug addict and an undead evil sorcerer.

Chapter 6
Damien bravely visits the Patriarch to report, only to find that Calesta is an awful gossip who's already shared everything, including the really slashy bits like the mind bond. Which, perhaps understandably, has the Patriarch frothing at the mouth.



Quotes

• Did the demon really have a greater plan, Andrys sometimes wondered, or was he just toying with a wounded soul, seeing how long it would take Gerald Tarrant's last descendant to break?



• Gold sun splayed across his chest, gold wires coiling about its rays, pectoral and abdominal muscles sculpted like living flesh. Bold in its artwork, perfect in its craftsmanship, and oh, so familiar! Hateful, terrifying relic! He felt the metal burning where it touched him, hot through his clothing, acid-sharp; his armor, brought back to life by the power of gold and craftsmanship.



• How could she explain to them that she had already faced the greatest evil of all, the well of terror in her own soul? How could she explain the way in which that confrontation had transformed her, smothering the helpless child who so needed protection, giving birth to someone older and stronger and far more adaptable. What did the petty evils of this world amount to, when compared to the Hunter's Forest?



• Gray! It was an affront to everything he perceived himself to be, the first hint of decay in a life too full of challenges to slow down for anything as mundane as aging. He had almost pulled the hairs out when they first appeared - back when there were fewer than a dozen - but the sheer vanity of such an act reminded him of Tarrant, and so he'd let the damn things stay.



• The acceptance of such natural processes was central to Damien's faith, and dying at his appointed time would be his ultimate service to his God. Sure, it would be hard. Many things in this world were hard. That's what gave them power.



• If only you could learn to wield that power consciously, Damien thought, no man could stand against you. But the Patriarch never would. Sorcery was anathema to him, and so he had blocked all knowledge of his own natural skills, and lived an illusion of flesh-bound helplessness.



• "You gave in to corruption." The very air seemed to shiver with the power of the Patriarch's condemnation. "You fell into the Prophet's own trap, justifying your sins by the very scriptures that damned you."



• What good will your holy protocol do if Calesta has his way? What good can the Church do in a world where sadism rules supreme? It's humanity's soul we're fighting for now, can't you see that? Can't you see how petty your rules seem by contrast, when the future of the whole world is at stake?
  
  
• He nearly lost control then, nearly snapped at the Patriarch that yes, he damned well knew about the Prophet's writings, he had traveled with the bastard for two years now and probably had a better handle on his philosophy than any man alive.

Thoughts

• Ah, Andrys. Yes. What to say about him that keeps to moderator neutrality. :-) I wonder whether we're supposed to sympathize with him or not; I'd find it easy to pity him for what Gerald did to him, but the whining and the complete lack of spine ruins it for me.



• Narilka must have quite a talent for silver-smithying - she's gone from zero to this in roundabout two years.



• The bit about Damien's gray hairs and vanity never fails to make me giggle, but I also find the underlying philosophy interesting. It's just logical when you consider that the Church after the Prophet put their emphasis on rejecting the fae in all forms and imitating Earth life where they can. But it's also one of the bits where I'd love to know what the original interpretation was. I can't imagine Gerald prohibiting fae use to prolongue life, even when striking pacts with evil forces is not considered.



• There is so much in the conversation between Damien and the Patriarch that would be worth mentioning and discussing, so I'll just toss out a few thoughts on it: I love how their images of the Prophet keep clashing - the Patriarch's sanitized and idealized variation versus Damien's real experience and the irritation at being told to take him as an example to follow. And there's the question of whether the ends may justify the means, or whether principles are worth risking the world at large. The Patriarch's unconscious fae use... if Damien wanted to, it could be a weapon in his own arsenal to mention it. Like I said, those are just a few points from that chapter, and I'd be interested to hear what you think of it.

On Monday it's time for Narilka to remember her time in the Forest with the Hunter, and for Damien to sit down and have a beer with him in chapters 7 and 8. See you then!

Comments

[alice_montrose]

she's got bad luck with her men - the most recent ones having been a drug addict and an undead evil sorcerer

Sadly, he does not know the whole truth: not only are the two distantly related, but the drug addict looks like the undead sorcerer, and his whole family was slaughtered by said villain. To say that Narilka has men issues seems like an understatement, at best. =^_^= (Also, I suspect Saris is mildly responsible for her silversmith aptitudes.)

Poor Patriarch, now he has to deal with issues he would rather avoid. Not only is the Prophet still alive, he has become the worst nightmare in the East and has convinced Damien that forming a bond with an evil being can be extremely slashy a good learning opportunity and an excellent alliance.

And in spite of all the dreams (by now I suspect they are not Divinings just yet, merely true dreams sent to keep him updated on what the thorns in his side are up to - one thorn in particular!), the Patriarch still doesn't know he's an adept. No wonder Gerald will be having such a field day tempting him later on!

Hey! We should do an individual post which illustrates our opinion about Andrys, without any moderator neutrality at all!

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

lol he is kinda lame! Narilka should do better

[alice_montrose]

We all ahve our weaknesses... Narilka's are Hunter look-alikes. :P

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Who can blame her?

[trobadora]

Oh, I don't know, the looks do precious little for me. Young and blond really isn't my thing! With the Hunter, it's all in the personality. ;)

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

True. At any rate, the minute he opens his mouth the illusion is ruined. Still, it doesn't hurt. :)

[trobadora]

Rather close my eyes than close my ears. *g*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I don't think he's figured out that the Prophet is still alive, or he wouldn't keep quoting him at Damien. I love that whole "don't tell me what the Prophet said, I've spent the last two years being irritated by him and I even know what sort of underwear he prefers" attitude. *g*

As for Andrys, I'll just wait until trobadora joins me for posting, then I get to rant in 50% of posts!

[alice_montrose]

Heh. Yes, well... if I remember correctly, he certainly knows who Gerald is by the time they do meet. But I think the Patriarch did the smart thing of seeing the Prophet and the Hunter as two different persons. Because the Prophet would be, by now, and idealized figure, and thus it would be impossible for him to show up "in the flesh", so to speak. Plus, if I remember correctly the Patriarch keeps speaking about the Prophet even later on. (I promise to reread and refresh my memory...)

You can rant as much as you like. I'll probably join you in the comments. ^^;;;

[rekishi]

"don't tell me what the Prophet said, I've spent the last two years being irritated by him and I even know what sort of underwear he prefers"

can someone please write a fic in which this exact wording is used? i almost choked on my own spit just there.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I've got a thought, let me see if something drabble-ish comes of it.

[silver-ariane.livejournal.com]

I love all the mentions of the Prophet as the Patriarch knows him in this chapter. Particularly Damien's bristling at being told what his teachings mean (makes me laugh the same way Gerald's line about how "they always read it wrong" at the end of WTNF does). I really like the Patriarch in this chapter, much more than I do by the end. :)

I geeked out over all the religion talk in this chapter because not only is there so much of it, it's so clearly based on Abrahamic monotheism. Particularly because this:

"Our most holy war is against corruption... In this world, and in ourselves. The first battle is easy compared to the second. So the Prophet taught."

is almost verbatim from a supposed hadith of Muhammad from after the battle of Badr. Thought that was interesting. There's been hints before at Islam (Shaitan, the Prophet, not showing his face), but I had forgotten about that line. It makes me wonder exactly which Earth artifacts and texts the Prophet had to work with when creating his church.

Oh, and also, I love how even the Patriarch picks up on how incredibly slashy the blood-drinking was.

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

lol I also love that line although I didnt know it was similar to an actual religion...*is interested* I guess what with corruption being such a theme throughout the books it is an interesting aspect of their religion to choose to show

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

The idea behind most religions is to fight corruption - in their followers or the world as a whole - in some way. It's either by living a good life and getting rewarded in a (corruption-free) heaven or with a better life next time around, or by waging holy war on those perceived not to stick with the divine rules. Occasionally both.

The interesting spin the Prophet put on it was that it doesn't get easier. Usually you'd look for something to encourage your followers, but he based his religion on their willingness to fight an uphill battle.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I find the Patriarch a hypocrite even here, but I am with you in that I like him less the more CoS progresses. :-)

I don't know enough about Islam to pick up on the hints there except for Shaitan - the image issue I associate with the Byzantine Iconoclasm, since the Church as a whole feels like it's based on Byzantine and Orthodox roots in a lot of ways to me. But the Abrahamic religions are so tightly related in their traditions and habits that a case can probably be made for most of them as a base. In comparison, I see very little of other religions in the Church; Gerald seems to have gone for Christian/Jewish/Muslim base assumptions rather than bother with polytheism.

As for the blood drinking... when you think about how Catholics and Orthodox use consecrated wine as a symbol for drinking the blood of Christ, the blood sharing gets a lovely little spin.

[silver-ariane.livejournal.com]

There's quite a few Islamic references, more than those about Judaism, I think. Then some things like the image issue could go either way, since AFAIK the reasons behind it were similar in both religions. I'm glad you brought up Byzantine/Orthodox traditions -- I agree. In fact, Gerald basing his ideas on that period would explain the strong Islamic influence too, since the Byzantines had so much contact with the Caliphate.

I always assumed the lack of polytheism was due to lack of sources or colonists from that background, though I can see Gerald actively choosing the monotheist traditions as appealing most to him.

Good point about the blood drinking. I wonder if that's intentional, too -- I can't remember if it says something about it in the upcoming chapters with the Unnamed, but given the fae, I wonder how much control Gerald had over the creature he became.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I always assumed the lack of polytheism was due to lack of sources or colonists from that background, though I can see Gerald actively choosing the monotheist traditions as appealing most to him.

There was a mention of Indian mythology/religion in the WTNF prologue, so it's known. But it may not have had a strong backing among the colonists.

Monotheism might simply have been the easiest to work with. Focus on one god is better than splitting the attention among many. And historically speaking, monotheism tends to be more successful.

but given the fae, I wonder how much control Gerald had over the creature he became.

I always had the impression that during his first few centuries he wasn't entirely in control. He's still got occasional trouble when it comes to turning into what someone fears most, and that's after nine centuries of practice.

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

lol I never even thought about the blood drinking in that light! I suppose the unnamed were in a way created by humanity (I assume they were anyway cos species natural to Erna dont produce demons - do they?) So probably they would have been influenced by all the devil legends out there... and as to Patriarch maybe he just needed a hug? :)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

You're right about the Unnamed and the local forces not influencing the fae to produce demons, as far as I recall. That's a human import. Remember how Gerald tried to eliminate hell but failed because the rest of the Church leadership wanted to keep it?

A hug for the Patriarch? *g* I'm sure that will be Gerald's intention when he comes to visit him for the Monday discussion chapter.

[shadowystar.livejournal.com]

with the Byzantine Iconoclasm, since the Church as a whole feels like it's based on Byzantine and Orthodox
I agree with you here but also see the point about Islam as well. In fact, I recognize almost all of the 5 main religions here. I can't remember where but somewhere in the books the fact is mentioned that all colonists were of the same religion and shared the same faith to reduce differences and therefore guarantee stability within the new colony. I just wonder how Gerald got so much information about old Earth's beliefs to be able to base his own religion on since hundreds of years passed. If I remember it correctly, there was almost nothing left of the ship and all they had after Casca's Sacrifice was what each of them knew themselves. I remember also the desperate plea right after the sacrifice to write down everything which probably wouldn't be exactly much if their civilization relied as much on their equivalent of Internet as we do on ours...
I'd like to know where the heck did Gerald have his information from? (From the Data Lords?) Because it would be easier to revive a religion such as the Christian for example than start anew. More important even, whatever religion they had before (I tend to think it was christian.. or kind of a universal religion *doubts*) had to be basically forgotten because if there still were some believers of the old way it could have caused something like the Middle Ages on Earth, inquisition included (thus a monotheistic religion). Or was there on Erna too, in the Dark Age? Or 'Dark Age' means loss of knowledge?
Oh, and all the blood drinking... I thought of the symbolism, too. Which promptly gave me one more plot bunny to my steadily growing zoo... *sighs*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I remember also the desperate plea right after the sacrifice to write down everything which probably wouldn't be exactly much if their civilization relied as much on their equivalent of Internet as we do on ours...

They could still write down what they know, and legends, myths and religions would be easier to keep than detailed technical info. You need an expert to sketch a plan of a microscope, but a lot of people can give you at least the basics of their religious background.

More important even, whatever religion they had before (I tend to think it was christian.. or kind of a universal religion *doubts*) had to be basically forgotten because if there still were some believers of the old way it could have caused something like the Middle Ages on Earth, inquisition included (thus a monotheistic religion). Or was there on Erna too, in the Dark Age? Or 'Dark Age' means loss of knowledge?

From the sound of it, the first few centuries were chaos, with plenty of gurus and other messiaic figures running around. Gerald simply was in a position to use one existing structure - the Church - and build on that with his own knowledge and with enough military force to back up his religlous ideas. With its strong focus on returning to Earth, it might even have been a leftover of an Earth religion, altered by the years.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

The Patriarch knows a lot about sorcery for a guy who's so bent on denying it. I don't know whether that's weird, or a sign of an organization that values knowledge about its enemies.

The conversation about Damien giving Tarrant his blood always creeped me out a bit. It seems sort of...voyeuristic.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

He's had to allow some of his acolytes/novices to learn the basics from Damien, so maybe he looked into it? And I suspect that when you grow up in a world where sorcery is everywhere, you pick up knowledge along the way. The question is how much of what he thinks he knows is actually accurate.

The conversation about Damien giving Tarrant his blood always creeped me out a bit. It seems sort of...voyeuristic.

Same here. It's stepping over a line to privacy, even though the Patriarch has a point in mentioning it.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Yeah, if there's one thing Damien has done that deserves bawling out, that's probably it. But it's so personal...then again, it's not like Damien or the Patriarch seem to be the least bit comfortable discussing it either.

Man, these books sure do feature a lot of violation and dub-con themes.