Coldfire re-read: Crown of Shadows - chapters 16-18

[trobadora]

We've had a slight change in schedule due to unexpected illness, but we're ready to continue now ...

Plot summary

Chapter 16
The Patriarch dreams about a Hunter look-alike and becomes aware of a new option.

Chapter 17
Damien prepares to go on his quest with Karril, and follows the Hunter's trail right into Hell.

Chapter 18
The Patriarch finds Andrys is actually in Jaggonath and tries to arrange a meeting. Meanwhile, people around the Forest are being attacked by beasts coming from there, and in Jaggonath temples are being desecrated by the Church's faithful. The Patriarch decides to accept Gerald's gift of knowledge ...

Quotes

• Riding in the wake of the false Neocount, they encounter no opposition, but make their way toward the heart of the Forest with a prayer upon their lips and the song of the One God loud within their hearts. The Forest thinks that they belong to him, its master, and it makes no move against them. Wave after wave moves into the preternatural darkness, as the spear of the Church is leveled against the Hunter's throne....


• As spokesman for the One God's Church, the Patriarch knew the power of symbols all too well, and this one reverberated in his soul with stunning force. A symbolic victory over the Forest's prince would affect the fae in a way that generations of sorcerers could never manage, winning a far greater battle in the long run. It wouldn't be necessary for men to make war against the Forest itself, or even try to contain it; that was the mistake the Patriarch's predecessors had made, which had resulted in the Church's greatest defeat. No, if they made war against the symbol of the Forest, by attacking its demonic monarch, and if they won, the planet itself would be their ally.


• He rented a small room in one of the poorer neighborhoods, using Church credit for the deposit. Having given the better part of his remaining cash to his previous landlady, he had no other option. He winced at the thought of the Patriarch hearing about it, but then, if the Holy Father heard about this incident at all, Damien would be in such deep shit anyway that a little bit of cash more or less would hardly matter. If the Patriarch found out that he was traveling with demons now, and knew what he planned to do ... he didn't like to think about that possibility.


• "This is the world the Iezu inhabit." The demon's voice was surprisingly real, a lifeline of sound in a domain of dreams. "Defined not by boundaries of matter but by human perception." He brushed his hand against a nearby wall as he walked; the ghostly substance gave way like water to his flesh, and ripples coursed outward to the edges of the structure. "This is how the Iezu see."


• All about them the world was a fairy landscape, with objects and buildings and even living creatures more or less visible as humans accorded them focus. And through it all flowed the fae, more clearly visible than Damien had ever seen it before. Far more powerful. Was this what Tarrant saw, when he viewed the world through an adept's eyes? It was wonderful, but also terrifying.


• "Only be careful. That's all I know how to tell you. No other human has willingly gone where I'm about to take you. And those who went unwillingly . . ." he shrugged stiffly. "They had other problems."
  He looked at Karril. "Tarrant never came here?"
  For a moment the demon said nothing. "Not willingly," he answered at last. Refusing to meet Damien's eyes.


• For a moment Damien faltered. For a moment it seemed so impossible that he could survive this crazy mission that he almost stepped back, almost said the words, almost ended their doomed venture then and there. Had he really thought that he could stand up to a Power that even Tarrant feared, and emerge unscathed? The mere thought of touching this thing before him, no more than its residue, made him sick; how would it feel to plung9 into it body and soul, without knowing if he ever would rise up again?
  But then he thought of Calesta, and of the holocaust that demon had deliberately provoked in the east. He thought of Calesta's plans for his world, and of what would happen to his species if the demon should ever triumph. And he knew in that moment that it wasn't death which frightened him most, or even the thought of facing the Unnamed. It was the prospect of failure.


• He shut his eyes for a moment, and tried to still the rising tide of terror in his soul. Damn you, Tarrant! Damn you for making me go through this, just to save your murderous hide. But in the face of such a journey his accustomed curse was rendered powerless, even ludicrous. Tarrant was in Hell already, or someplace beyond it. And he was going there to save him.


• The dreams were so tempting, with their dramatic solution: a war against the Forest, in which the growing violence in his people could be channeled toward a positive end. A second Great War, in which the Church would at last be triumphant. The spirit of his people was ready for it. The means existed. The funds could be assigned.
  The consequences were terrifying. He had prayed for nights on end for some new insight, but none had come to him. It was so tempting, those dreams of triumph. But if he obeyed his visions and started a war, how would he end it? Violence begets violence, he despaired. How could he encourage it among his people, and then expect it to disperse at the campaign's end? What kind of act or symbol would be powerful enough to disrupt such a cycle?


• He saw the future. The futures. He saw his war won, and the Church triumphant. He saw it lost, and watched the Church wither away in the shadow of that failure. He watched the Church triumph again and again, and he watched it fail also, and each time it was different: future after future unveiled before him in one blinding flood of raw potential. The war was won, but the violence continued; the war was won, but his people's faith was poisoned; the war was lost and all, all was lost with it....

Thoughts

• Just how plausible do you think this set-up is, with the Forest mistaking Andrys for Gerald? Until this happened here, I always thought the Hunter was connected to the Forest through the fae, and I'd never have thought a case of mistaken identity was even possible ...


• Damien's worries about the Patriarch are rather cute at this point, especially since he never lets them stop him even for a second.


• Interesting bit about Iezu perception - and adept perception, as Damien wonders whether adepts see the fae the same way Iezu do. What do you think? Certainly adepts see matter in the human way as well, not merely as echoes of perception, but the fae itself? Is there a difference? Opinions?


• Why do you think Tarrant never went on that path? Experimenting with Iezu perception sounds right up his alley, doesn't it?


• I'm amused by the newspaper articles and the mention of a press release in Chapter 18. Coldfire is such a fabulous blend of the medieval, the fantastic, and the modern. I rather adore it. But now I'm imagining journalism on Erna ... How do you think that works? *g*


• Violence begets violence, the Patriarch thinks. And I don't see that that aspect of his campaign is ever resolved in any way - or am I missing something there?


• What do you think of Gerald's gift, and the way it plays out?

And on Thursday, we'll be continuing with chapter 19 ...

Comments

[alice_montrose]

Just how plausible do you think this set-up is, with the Forest mistaking Andrys for Gerald?

Had this not been canon, I actually would not have bought it. But as I've said, I suspected Andrys of being the convenient plot device to begin with... and I was not wrong. Which is why I usually ignore this side of the story (with the exception of some of the Patriarch bits, because I loooooooooove seeing him angst) and rather focus my attention on the Gerald/Damien love affair interaction, which is far more plausible and infinitely more entertaining.

Why do you think Tarrant never went on that path?

Maybe he did, at some point. We never quite know what he was up to for all those centuries, except in the broadest of terms.

How do you think [journalism on Erna] works?

I assume it works pretty much the same as journalism in the late 19th - early 20th century worked, only with the occasional modern twist. I'd love to get a look at their tabloids, though - you know, beyond the "sorceress finds Hunter's sigil burned into her bedpost". I believe Andrys may have been quite the favourite with tabloids, too.

What do you think of Gerald's gift, and the way it plays out?

Oh, a perfect blend of the prophet and the Hunter, the gesture is. It is useful yet ironic and fitting and causes much angst about choosing the right path and being damned but having to save the Church by all means necessary. I love it! *cackles* (Even if the Patriarch ends up spoiling Gerald's Sacrifice with his own... selfish bastard!)

[trobadora]

Yes, you're absolutely right, Andrys is nothing but a plot device. I resent the time that's spent on him, and would resent it even more if I didn't like Narilka so much. *sighs*

Karril says he didn't, and if anyone knows it should be him ...

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

The "Andrys as pseudo-Hunter" plotline has always had some big holes, and the mistaken identity bit is one of them for me. It simply doesn't make sense. Genetically, there are roundabout 40 generations between him and Tarrant, and all the massacres prevented inbreeding to an extent that Gerald Tarrant's genes can only exist in Andrys in homoeopathic doses. Andrys has no connection to the fae, so that won't work either. The only way it could work is if enough people actually believed it to work. But it only occurs to Tarrant in the very end, and while the Patriarch may believe it, he's one untrained mind alone. So no, doesn't make sense to me.

Certainly adepts see matter in the human way as well, not merely as echoes of perception, but the fae itself? Is there a difference? Opinions?

Normal humans like Damien can see the fae, so I think the difference isn't in what it looks like´, but in the permanence and the information this carries. I've always imagined it like seeing in the infrared spectrum as an additional layer across the regular visions. The question is what the mind can cope with - isn't autism also a matter of sensory overload in some cases? So part of teh difference might also be in whether the brain has gone through a bit of additional evolution to deal with the input. They do say a few times that adepts have a tendency to go mad.

And yes, that stuff is definitely up Tarrant's alley. He could have had fun with it for centuries.

But now I'm imagining journalism on Erna ... How do you think that works? *g*

Just like ours, I imagine. Just think of the yellow press. *g*

Violence begets violence, the Patriarch thinks. And I don't see that that aspect of his campaign is ever resolved in any way - or am I missing something there?

That would be another hole in that plotline... it never gets picked up again after this, I think. But the thought makes me want to pick up Gundam Wing again - that series had a host of theories on war and how to end it.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

The only way it could work is if enough people actually believed it to work. But it only occurs to Tarrant in the very end, and while the Patriarch may believe it, he's one untrained mind alone. So no, doesn't make sense to me.

And yet he goes to great lengths to dress up like Tarrant, with the armor and everything (though that's Calesta's instructions). But people don't know what the Prophet looked like, right? So... *helpless shrug* Nope, not much sense.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

But people don't know what the Prophet looked like, right?

Another plothole... you're right, it's completely pointless. The silly boy gets dressed up for himself and Narilka, they're the only ones who know the painting. Not even the Patriarch would recognize that it'S the exact same armour, and not just some Revivalist replica armour. After all they've gone to such lengths not to have images of the Prophet...

[alice_montrose]

I suspect that, had Gerald not been a whee bit busy at the time, they wouldn't have even made it near the Forest before he put an end to the whole charade.

Unless, of course, Andrys is Gerald's clone and the product of genetic experimentation on Gerald's part. Which, we know, is not the case.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

It would have made a lot more sense if the Patriarch's crusaders had reached the Forest, Andrys at their head, took one step inside and got eaten by the trees. With the ceremonial armour left so Gerald could puzzle over its origin at some later point.

If Andrys were the result of genetic manipulation, something went badly, badly wrong.

[alice_montrose]

Why give the poor trees indigestion? I am certain there are other creatures there that require the sustenance more than the trees do, after all. *imagines worm-like thing stuck to Andrys' even emptier head*

something went badly, badly wrong

It did. They forgot to give him a brain. ^^;;;;

[trobadora]

Much as I wouldn't put it past Gerald to experiment with cloning, no clone of Gerald's could possibly be that stupid.

Unless something went very, very wrong ...

[alice_montrose]

As I've said, we know it's not the case. And had this been one of his experiments, it would have been terminated long before. It is simply unlike him to allow someone so stupid to live.

... then again, he does many things that are unlike him as far as Andrys is concerned.

I see that Andrys-bashing post practically writing itself. *shudders* Maybe I should just make a post with that subject line and specify that people should feel free to go ahead and write uncom0plimentary comments targeted at him.

[trobadora]

Andrys-bashing is so easy it's almost no fun.

Almost. *g*

[alice_montrose]

Just so! *smirks*

(Also: Meet Zechs, of the mysterious Gundam Wing mentioned somewhere in here. Best mecha anime of the Gundam franchise, IMHO. Lots of angst in there, too.)

[trobadora]

It's utterly silly. I suppose it's meant to work on a symbolic level, but even on Erna that only has an effect if there's enough focus, and who's supposed to supply the necessary belief? Nah. No way.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Friedman just needed Andrys in place to kill the Hunter, and how to do that if the silly boy can't get through the Forest...

[alice_montrose]

It's not that the whole "have Andrys kill the Hunter" plot doesn't come with its quite severe issues... Personally, I would have found either the Patriarch or Damien (under extreme circumstances, for a very good reason) killing him a far more plausible explanation.

[trobadora]

Yeah. Plot device. *sighs*

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

But it's only necessary for Tarrant to die because of Andrys. Andrys is the only reason people know what the Hunter looks like. Unless his reincarnation is supposed to be how Tarrant escapes that whole sticky little damnation issue...but that's never addressed as a motive or effect, so we can't assume that.

Honestly, in terms of the story, what does Andrys accomplish? What is he supposed to accomplish? He provides the Patriarch with an excuse to go after the Forest...but couldn't that have been done in another way? Tarrant couldn't afford to just off the Patriarch, under the circumstances, so we didn't need Andrys to provide a reason for Tarrant not just wading in to smite everybody (besides, the Hunter is terribly distracted in this book). Amoril was a busy little bee bringing the Forest down from inside, so Andrys really isn't necessary for getting people in there.

So what does he actually accomplish, other than getting Narilka involved again?

[trobadora]

No one knows what the Prophet or the Hunter looks like, so ... yeah, that really doesn't quite work. :(

[trobadora]

Yeah, it doesn't work genetically, it doesn't work through the fae, and it doesn't work symbolically either since no one actually knows what the Hunter or the Prophet looks like! *eyerolls*

I don't know Gundam Wing at all - what's that about?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Gundam Wing is an Earth-future anime - essentially mankind has settled space around earth, but there are rebellions and uprisings everywhere, and a controlling military organization which tries to impose order. You get a number of characters, all of whom are in positions to have worldwide effects, and who all have different ideas on how to achieve peace. The dominant ideas towards the end are: a) destroy Earth, since the source of conflict is there, b) take away all weapons and bloody well order people to be nice, and c) give them all a war so terrible they'll not want a repeat performance ever again.

(It didn't hurt that the show was aimed at slashers, and that the cast featured several handsome guys who tended to run around in tigh-high leather boots. ;-)

[trobadora]

Ah, I see. Sounds interesting!

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Don't forget the pretty boys with the giant mechs. :)

But yes, the story was actually pretty compelling and tightly told.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I was a die-hard Oz shipper, so I still do my best to forget the kiddies and their mechs. ;-)

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

I thought the whole point of the patriarchs sacrifice was to symbolically cleanse the guilt and the violence from the soldiers and so end the violency cycle?

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

yeah, that's what I understood as well.

[trobadora]

I must have missed that completely. Will pay more attention this time!

[trobadora]

Is it? I really need to pay more attention to that plotline this time through!

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I thought it was a martyrdom for the cause kind of thing, and that's why it imprinted the fae with self-sacrifice.