Coldfire re-read: Crown of Shadows - chapters 28 and 29

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Tonight we learn how to organize a crusade, how to escape a demon-controlled mob, and how to pick the best boat to steal out of a crowd. Valuable lessons, all of them!


Plot Summary

Chapter 28
The Patriarch prepares his Crusade (with a bit more efficiency than medieval Earth crusades tended to be planned) and gets pestered by a certain Narilka Lessing, who wants to join the fun but who can't be allowed to come along.

Chapter 29
Damien and Gerald hit the road once again, run into an angry town mob (again), narrowly escape (again) and steal a boat (for the first time). There's also much manly bonding to go on.



Quotes

• There were more women than he would have expected, for one thing; given that gender's lesser propensity for organized violence, he had expected that few would sign on for such a venture. But he had underestimated the symbolic power of the Forest in the minds of his female congregants, and the depths of their hatred for the Hunter. Some claimed that they would give their lives in order to bring that demon to his knees, and he did not doubt for a minute that it was true.



• Clearly the world was ready for such action. The Forest had been a threat for too long. And there was no other organization on the face of this planet, religious or otherwise, with the courage to attempt such an assault, and the skill to make it succeed.



• To bear them into battle against the Forest again would be to shackle his army to that great defeat, to awaken echoes of a loss so devastating that the fae would be forced to respond, damning their efforts.



• And since, truth be told, there was nothing Damien would enjoy less than running into the Patriarch with the Hunter by his side, he had finally agreed to the eastern route, on the far side of the river.



• He didn't want to look at him again, for fear that he would see something all too human in those death-pale eyes. Something he couldn't deal with right now.
  Pity.



• Yes, he could reach Shaitan in less than a week if he traveled alone, but clearly he preferred not to. He doesn't want to face death alone, Damien mused. And, darkly: I don't blame him.



• "You can shapeshift," the ex-priest reminded him. "Fly out of here and reach Shaitan that way."
  "Yes," he said shortly. "But you can't."



• He had his own sword out, flame-embossed grip settled firmly in his palm. The sword of his Order, the Golden Flame, of which Gerald Tarrant had once been Knight Premier. And he still claimed that title, Damien knew. Assuming Tarrant dead, the Church had never bothered to throw him out. For some reason, in this dark moment, the thought pleased him immensely.



• "I'll take the wheel until dawn. You go below and see that there's secure shelter for me somewhere, then try to rest. Oh, and see to the horses."

Thoughts

• Tarrant gives the Patriarch the ability to use the fae to his benefit. The Patriarch has more or less understood the game Calesta plays. And yet he still goes ahead with his crusade plans - using Tarrant's offered knowledge in the process - and doesn't even bother to see whether there aren't more important things to be done. Yes, I feel exasperated about that character.



• Deus vult. This is such a classic crusade. And yet I've never been entirely sure why. Just because of those incidents we saw mentioned earlier that involved the Forest? Or is this something the Patriarch is doing for his own ego? Conquering the Forest (the Church's biggest and worst defeat) would be a feather in his cap.



• It's a little detail, but one that rubs me the wrong way every time I read this chapter. The Patriarch doesn't want to use the old weapons because they'll remind people of their previous defeat at the hands of the Forest. But he's not worried about them remembering about that defeat when they're doing things like, say, marching on the Forest? In a Church-led crusade like before? The weapons may be a reminder, but a lot of other things are too. Like the whole concept of attacking the Forest a second time because the first time didn't work out.



• Damien, running into the Patriarch with the Hunter at his side. I'd pay to see that fic. ;-)



• Damien telling Tarrant that he's resigned (and the unspoken fact that it's been after much pressure to do so) is one of those little moments I love about this book because it puts the two of them on such equal footing in their experiences.



• There's a lot of play with trust and loyalty in this chapter. They've relied on each other before, but here it moves to a more personal level - Tarrant even trusts Damien to find him a safe resting place for the day on their sailing trip. To me it feels as if they've given up their token attempts to keep a professional distance in their working relationship, and moved to a far more personal level. What's your impression?

Next Monday we tackle chapters 30 and 31 - lots of fun with Narilka having a feisty moment, and Damien and Gerald facing the perils of sailing.

Comments

[trobadora]

And yet he still goes ahead with his crusade plans - using Tarrant's offered knowledge in the process - and doesn't even bother to see whether there aren't more important things to be done.

Yes, that! Fat lot of good it would do him or anyone if Tarrant weren't around to save the world. *kicks Patriarch*

Honestly, I've no idea why he's so dead set on doing this right here, right now - certainly trying to get rid of the Forest would be a good thing under other circumstances, but honestly, the Patriarch comes across as more than a little obsessed with this specific evil to the detriment of the larger fight against evil far worse than that. Makes me want to slap him.

But then again, this whole crusade never makes sense start to finish, seeing as how the strategy should never have worked at all and they should certainly never have been able to succeed.

To me it feels as if they've given up their token attempts to keep a professional distance in their working relationship, and moved to a far more personal level. What's your impression?

Unsurprisingly, the same. :)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

The real fun about the whole Crusade is that the Church's trouble with the Forest stopped once Tarrant moved in and tidied up. There's no point in attacking the Forest. It's a relatively peaceful neighbour now, and makes for a great adversary to unite the Church followers. Everybody knows you need an enemy to inspire unity and loyalty in your people. Who better than someone who's guaranteed to never, ever actively move against you because your organization is his brainchild and he'd never harm it?

Ah well. There's a reason why I usually ignore that whole plotline.

[trobadora]

I could see the point if it were about cleansing that well of dark fae the Forest is situated on, but the Patriarch's crusade seems to be against the symptoms, not the cause.

Bah.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, he does periodically kidnap and murder local women.

Honestly, I always assumed he must get up to something dastardly now and then, because there's too much hatred and fear going around regarding the Forest and its master to be explained away with "It's dark in there and sometimes we hear wolves!"

[rekishi]

Damien, running into the Patriarch with the Hunter at his side. I'd pay to see that fic. ;-)

On a stroll out in town or what? *blinks at you* you evil bunny person *grmbl*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

*innocent whistle*

[rekishi]

that's worse than meeting your parents when you're out in town with your bf they don't know about. if anything that's going to be crack >< I have another Coldfire story I want to finish first ;_;

[trobadora]

Yay for bunnies! :D

[alice_montrose]

You need to post this bunny, then. *eg*

[alice_montrose]

I'm not sure what Friedman is trying to do here. The Patriarch pretty much loses it, in that he seems to want to defeat the Forest at all costs, but his view on how he should proceeds seems limited to one opinion only (his). This means ignoring some things that could have helped, and resorting to other means that will likely get them all killed, and playing it all on the assumption Andrys can pass for the Hunter (which may to work inthe book, but it is a somewhat ridiculous idea IMO).

Part 2 is pretty much where my "groan moments" started to happen while reading CoS. And I could not put it down, because on the one hand you have the exquisite male bonding between Gerald and Damien, but on the other hand the Calesta vs. Church vs. Forest plot is starting to unravel and it pretty much sucks. My relationship with this book can be described as love/hate. X_X

Damien, running into the Patriarch with the Hunter at his side. I'd pay to see that fic.

You really do want to get the two of them lynched... what did they do to you?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

One of my problems with the Crusade plot is that I'm not sure what purpose it really serves. It does practically nothing for the Gerald/Damien plotline aside from putting Andrys into a suitable place for the ending. And that could have been accomplished by other means too. In itself, that plotline is so full of holes that it really isn't needed. Twice as much Damien/Gerald scenery and no Crusade, and I'd have been much happier.

You really do want to get the two of them lynched... what did they do to you?

Pfft. If Gerald won't abandon Damien to a pitchfork-wielding mob, he'd hardly leave him to the mercies of the Patriarch. Now that Damien has resigned from the Church, Gerald is his proper owner. ;-)

[trobadora]

Now that Damien has resigned from the Church, Gerald is his proper owner. ;-)

I love that moment when he realises he's riding with the Knight Premier of his own order. :D

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

more fic is always amazing... -looks around hopefully at writers- I would agree with you all that the whole cruscade thing makes NO SENSE! but I kinda like it anyway...sort of more for the symbolism than any real continuity and the scenes between Damien and Tarrant are lovely!

I think the patriarch is probably there to remind us that the hunter is an evil bastard who ought to be destroyed sort of like Andrys - its like we see Damien react like that at the start and then begin to accept him and then the reader needs some reminder that he is still like the prince of darkness or something like that...

[trobadora]

its like we see Damien react like that at the start and then begin to accept him and then the reader needs some reminder that he is still like the prince of darkness or something like that...

Yes, I think that's mostly it - and it's not a bad idea, in theory, but in execution it just utterly doesn't work. *sighs*

Makes me wonder what an effective reminder of Gerald's evil might have looked like ...

[alice_montrose]

Oh, violent slaughter of the whole Jagonnath, or perhaps evisceration and crucifixion of the Patriarch in font of the Cathedral... something equally gory. But it would also be a bit OOC for a sophisticated evil like Gerald. *luffs him anyway*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I don't think Friedman could have given us an effective reminder that would have kept Gerald in character. We've seen him kill in cold blood, we've seen him torture and drive people to suicide. Heck, we've seen him kill his wife and children. But she makes him so interesting and complex that it's easy to want to know more about him and disregard the evil bits.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

"an evil bastard who ought to be destroyed sort of like Andrys"

*rolls over laughing*

[fragorl.livejournal.com]

lol... not QUITE what I meant...but it kinda seems appropriate :p

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

The crusade against the Forest...well, it is a good way to bond the faithful in a difficult time: put them up against a real evil as a reminder of all they're not supposed to be. As long as the Patriarch can maintain control of the situation rather than Calesta, it's not a bad move.

Also if all goes well, he gets to burn down the Forest.

But maybe he is following Tarrant's suggestion. We get a sprawling fae-powered view of the various options and choices they all have in front of them, and the Patriarch's moves do ultimately lead up to a conclusion that could be construed as satisfying for the Church. If this is the case, I concede that it's poorly communicated, but that's the author's issue.

To be honest, I have a dark suspicion that the plot of the third book wasn't supposed to be what it is, but something more inclusive of the various characters and less satisfying to our little fangirl hearts. Not that it's super-satisfying now, but the other way would involve more Andrys... I think, frankly, that Damien and Tarrant got hold of the writer and wouldn't let her go long enough to finish the plot as she meant it to be.

To me it feels as if they've given up their token attempts to keep a professional distance in their working relationship, and moved to a far more personal level.

Yep. ^_^

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

But in going agains tthe Forest at this point - and in working on the assumption that he can circumvent Calesta's plans and keep control of the situation - the Patriarch fights two enemies rather than one. He wages war on the Forest, but he hasn't kept his back protected. Calesta coudl very easily have turned on him if things at the volcano had ended differently.

To be honest, I have a dark suspicion that the plot of the third book wasn't supposed to be what it is, but something more inclusive of the various characters and less satisfying to our little fangirl hearts.

CoS is my favourite, but I'm always drawn more to character-centric scenery rather than plot (which WTNF had a lot more of). There's a lot of friendship/relationship development crammed into this book, and for me it overshadows the plot. Gerald and Damien get to grow, and while Andrys has a lot of (badly executed) plot to go through, he stays pale because he's never as much fun to read as the other two.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I don't think he's leaving himself open. I think he's trying to protect the Church while Damien and Tarrant deal with Calesta. They're a pretty damn good rear guard; much as he dislikes hates them, I doubt he'd argue that they're incompetent or disinterested in the Church's continued existence. It's pretty much the only option he's got, anyway. He can't beat Calesta, and he knows it. You can tell, because if he thought he didn't need them, he'd have crucified Damien and be chasing Tarrant across the mountains with a burning torch at this point in the book. :D

Of course, in that reading of things, then he is being rather hypocritical. He's doing exactly what he's been carping at Damien for this whole series: using the bad guy's power for his own purposes. He's just letting Damien take the spiritual fall for it. Or maybe he's not. He does seem to come down pretty hard on himself for accepting Tarrant's gift. Maybe he's gone all 'noble fanatic' and decided that martyring himself is all he's good for at this point.

Which is pretty convenient for him, I have to say. He gets to go out with the warm fuzzy feeling of serving the cause, while Damien's the one left (literally) standing in the ashes. You know, I'd love to see what goes on with him in the next couple of months after the end of the books. Sure, the Church is victorious, the world's saved, and Tarrant's got a new lease on life, but he still pretty much sold his soul in the process. The whole point is that he never bailed on his ethics; he just did what he had to do and figured he'd pay for it later.

Yeah. I basically see Damien and the Patriarch as a commentary on the nature of the good guy. There's the hero who gets the acclaim, who may be honestly a good guy and might have honestly saved the day but who is not unmarred by selfish impulses. And then there's the bona fide saint, the guy who does the right thing no matter how much he has to sacrifice or how badly he gets punished for it, who might never see any reward except for knowing that someone's life is now better.

And then there's the anti-hero, who might go to incredible lengths to do the right thing, but it's all to serve his own ends. :D For Tarrant, none of this was about saving anybody else; it was about protecting himself and preserving his mark on the world. Still, a big step up from being a demonic servitor, so Damien's done some good work there.

[trobadora]

I concede that it's poorly communicated

And that is the most frustrating part of it all. I can't even tell what the intention is because the execution is so muddled.

I'm curious - how do you think the plot was originally supposed to go?

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I can't even tell what the intention is because the execution is so muddled.

Yeah, same here. I'm still winnowing out what I think was actually supposed to be happening. It's why I'm so fixated on following themes and motifs in these books; I keep trying to figure out "what the story's about." But on the other hand, the one thing it does have going for it is that it shares the sloppiness of real life, except that I can't tell whether that's intentional or failed plotting. And therein lies the problem. If you read it as intentionally messy, everything falls into place one way. If you read it as poor writing, then it all shakes out another (almost opposite) way.

I do believe all the bits are there. At least, there's a line between interpreting what we've got and making stuff up in order to fill the holes.

So what we've got is a story about two guys, morally opposed to the point of quasi-supernatural force, who set out together after a threat to all they respectively hold dear. It largely seems to be an internal story despite that: the drama is not in whether they can defeat the external threat, but whether there'll be enough left of either of them to do so after dealing with each other. For the first two books, this is pretty much how it stands. But by the third, they've largely worked this out and integrated, and the story seems to turn toward the external. Which is weird, and is the reason for my questioning it.

Given the sudden complexity of CoS and the fact that Friedman obviously had the plot at least partially laid out in BSR (where Narilka is introduced), my assumption is that if there's a mistake anywhere, it's with the strong internal focus of the first two books. In that case, Andrys and the Patriarch should probably have gotten more spotlight. I don't know whether Andrys is meant to be the redemptive tale (complete with wedding at the end) or a subversion of it, with the average, flawed guy getting the happy ending without having to work for it. Which one that is depends on my first question: was this meant to be real-life-style sloppy, or was that an accident?

Also...

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

He had his own sword out, flame-embossed grip settled firmly in his palm. The sword of his Order, the Golden Flame, of which Gerald Tarrant had once been Knight Premier. And he still claimed that title, Damien knew. Assuming Tarrant dead, the Church had never bothered to throw him out. For some reason, in this dark moment, the thought pleased him immensely.

I love that little vindictive streak of his.

I grieve that we never get to see enough of Damien's past (and isn't it funny that he ends up being our international man of mystery?) or enough of an outside perspective on the two of them to know just how much alike these two are.

Re: Also...

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I grieve that we never get to see enough of Damien's past (and isn't it funny that he ends up being our international man of mystery?) or enough of an outside perspective on the two of them to know just how much alike these two are.

*nod* There are hints, but simply not enough to draw a coherent image. Still, at the very least they adhere to the same religious philosophy and general idea of honourable behaviour.