Coldfire re-read: Crown of Shadows - chapters 32 and 33

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

With one week's delay, for which I am deeply sorry, here is the discussion post for chapters 32 and 33 - Andrys steps into the Forest, while Damien and Gerald get a taste of what they're up against.



Plot Summary

Chapter 32

Andrys, accompanied by the Patriarch and a merry gang of crusaders, approaches the Forest and finally figures out just what it means to pretend to be the Hunter. And he doesn't like it much, for which I can't blame him.

Chapter 33

Damien and Gerald go on a wild chase through the dark, up and down some mountains at breakneck speed, almost get killed, and narrowly escape. Business as usual on that end.



Quotes

• It was a small force even in its total, a deliberate contrast to the vast armies which had assaulted that realm in ages past. Those armies had failed, the Patriarch was quick to remind them. Numbers alone could not guarantee safety in a war where the very battlefield was alive and hostile.



• Did anyone really believe the One God was out there? Did anyone believe that He cared the least bit whether this venture of theirs succeeded? Did they honestly believe that a caring God would let a creature like the Hunter exist in the first place, much less reward his lifestyle with virtual immortality?



• Could a man become the Hunter in spirit and not be poisoned by the experience?



• Andrys knew enough about Church theosophy to recognize that as the man stood there, the center of attention for thousands of worshipers, he was in fact shaping the fae through their faith, weaving additional power for use in this venture. Why can't they just do it openly? he wondered. Call a stone a stone.



• "It's a gamble. A last-ditch effort in a game where Calesta controls most of the pieces. I'm sorry I had to plan it alone, but sharing my fears with you would have meant sacrificing the effectiveness of the feint. And seeing how little we have going for us without it . . ." He shrugged. "I apologize, Vryce. You deserved better."



• Innocent blood on his sword, now wiped clean from all but his soul....
  Two horses are a small enough sacrifice....
  God help him, what had he become?
  



• I built it years ago, against the possibility that someday a human army might attack the keep itself. If I were to need an escape route, it stood to reason that it should be to a place where men would fear to follow. An unlikely event at best, but I pride myself on being prepared.

Thoughts

• I'm not sure I buy the argument about the size of the army not mattering. If the Patriarch could have gotten a few hundred believers together to do this - and surely the Church can field that many - then why not go for it and use the larger reservoir of faith? The small size is one of those reminders that the whole campaign is a rushed thing that could have been planned a lot better with a bit more time.



• Andrys has some surprisingly insightful theological thoughts there. Any takes on whether God, once come into existence, would let the Hunter live?



• As far as Andrys becoming a vessel for the spirit of the Hunter is concerned... how far exactly does this go? How much of the Hunter's essence is in him by the time all the soldiers have taken their vows, beliving him to be something like the real thing? Is he the Hunter? Are there two of them right now? Or is Tarrant losing the Hunter-ness?



• If even Andrys picks up on the hypocrisy of the Church using the fae, it really must be bad.



• This is one of the few Andrys chapters where I can sympathize with him. He doesn't whine (much), there isn't so much self-pity, but a lot of realization just what he's gotten himself into and how he's being used.



• Tarrant, apologizing. And actually meaning it rather than it being a gesture. Just how often has that happened before?



• Digging a tunnel from the Forest to Shaitan. If I'm not completely off where geography is concerned, that's a stretch of up to 100 miles, underneath at least one huge river. All that just in case an army might attack the Forest and actually get through, and leave the Hunter with no other escape route at all, not even shape-changing and flying out. Sometimes, I can't help thinking that Tarrant is a bit over-prepared.

Next Monday we continue with chapters 34 and 35 - Amoril tries to complain about not having read the fine print, and Narilka has another Forest experience.

Comments

[rekishi]

Sometimes, I can't help thinking that Tarrant is a bit over-prepared.

Gerald's neurotic, as we pointed out already. and paranoid. wonder how that plays out for him post-trilogy.

(will comment on the rest later, probably, since I might have to do some thinking about Andrys)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

He's predestined to become a geeky genius. Not that he wasn't before, just with the added ingredient of evil undead mass murderer.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't take the thing about the size of the army too literally. He's just saying that no matter how many men they throw at the place, there's a good chance an awful lot of them will die.

No, I think if God were the kind of...er, guy to go around smiting folks he didn't like, it'd be a pretty darn weird world, whether he's a faeborn critter or the real thing. I think he'd let Tarrant dig his own grave. (Besides, he didn't smite Tarrant when Damien called him up.)

I don't think it's a matter of taking away the Hunter's essence, but of copying it. As for exactly what that means...if the immortal soul really exists (as opposed to a sort of faeborn astral projection of selfhood) then I don't think that fae-flavor has much say regarding it. I don't think that you'll magically become a worse person for being dipped in icky blackness, though it might not be very comfortable. But on the other hand, that kind of taint isn't something to carry around lightly, either. In this sense, the fae might be a manifestation of social position--how you interact with people, how they perceive you, pre-conceptions and judgments.

Tarrant has apologized sincerely at least once before, on the ship after the Prince.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

He's just saying that no matter how many men they throw at the place, there's a good chance an awful lot of them will die.

So throw a few million at it, in the hope that the remaining 1% is going to be a larger number...

Besides, he didn't smite Tarrant when Damien called him up.

Point taken. Though at that moment Tarrant seemed almost ready to do the smiting himself, out of sheer shock.

I don't think it's a matter of taking away the Hunter's essence, but of copying it.

But to what degree has Andrys become a Hunter-copy at this point? Is it just a veneer, or is it soul-deep? He does change from here on, once he adapts to the ickiness.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

So throw a few million at it, in the hope that the remaining 1% is going to be a larger number...

It's colloquially known as 'war.' ;) But yeah, it does seem like a waste of life. I just...I dunno, I guess I've never been clear on exactly what they're supposed to be accomplishing there. Is the goal to unite the Church behind a cause? To take out the Hunter (who the Patriarch knows damn well is out and about with Damien)? Is this supposed to be Calesta stirring up trouble and the Patriarch just riding along to try to keep the mob under control?

But to what degree has Andrys become a Hunter-copy at this point?

Okay, give me a minute while my mind stops boggling at trying to parse that sentence. ^_^

My impression is that Andrys changes once he pulls his head out of his arse and realizes that this isn't all about him and his problems. If anything, the evil!bath seems to help him grow a spine.

The funny thing is, we've just followed Damien through three books of steeping himself in the Hunter's corruption, but now that Andrys is doing it, I don't buy it. Maybe it's because I feel like corruption is something you have to earn. Whatever mark on his soul Damien has comes from hard choices he's made, whereas Andrys is just sitting there in someone else's armor. I'm sure that profiling the Hunter for a few weeks would indeed leave some effects, but we aren't really shown his process. Instead it seems we're just hand-waving the fae. ("Oh, it's like magic; trust me, it totally works.")

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I dunno, I guess I've never been clear on exactly what they're supposed to be accomplishing there.

The stated goal is to take down the Forest and rid the Hunter of his power base. Which is both idiotic. Taking down the Forest won't do anything to the underlying fae currents that make it such a focus point for the dark fae. It's getting rid of a symptom, not the cause. And taking away the Hunter's base is pure speculation. Does anyone even know whether he needs the Forest? We know he doesn't, but I don't think the Patriarch is aware of that.

If anything, the evil!bath seems to help him grow a spine.

*nod* That's my impression too. But Andrys is getting corruption on the fast food way, while Damien got three books to be gradually corrupted and has far better reasons for it.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

But Andrys is getting corruption on the fast food way, while Damien got three books to be gradually corrupted and has far better reasons for it.

Exactly. Empty evil-calories.

The stated goal is to take down the Forest and rid the Hunter of his power base. Which is both idiotic.

Yeah, that's my problem. The Patriarch states his awareness that Calesta's manipulating them and that he refuses to play into that. Then he goes after the Forest anyway. So I always wondered (because for all his sins, the Patriarch doesn't seem like a stupid man) what his reasoning on that was. Did he spontaneously turn into an idiot? Did he see this path to success in the visions Tarrant gave him? Did he think it'd distract Calesta? Or maybe he figured, "Oh, well, I have a perfectly good army, it'd be a shame for it to go to waste." We're given some clues (I do think it was supposed to be in the vision), but never enough for it to feel like it's more than a reader's best guess.

No wonder the third book always frustrated me. After two books' worth of interpersonal tension and character study, the second an actual plot shows up, she starts bouncing it like a hot potato. I'm really beginning to wonder if she planned for this to be an entirely different story, but Gerald and Damien kidnapped it from her for most of the trilogy. :D

[trobadora]

We're given some clues (I do think it was supposed to be in the vision), but never enough for it to feel like it's more than a reader's best guess.

And that's my problem with the Patriarch - you can rationalise his actions if you try really hard, but the book itself never bothers to actually show it making sense. It's more like - oh. I was going to say, he read the script and therefore knew he had to, but that's exactly what the visions did, isn't it?

Except that, from the POV of narrative and theme and everything, that's a really piss-poor reason.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

It's probably exactly what the visions did, but the book never bothers to show it, so we still have to guess. >_< And...oh, I don't know, if I were gambling the future of my entire world on this, I might do a bit more soul-searching? Admittedly, the Patriarch rocks the self-righteousness, but we get a couple of throwaway "Am I going to hell for this?" lines, and then he's off to wage war on Tarrant in the name of Tarrant--with absolutely no apparent recognition of the irony.

I recall it's mentioned that he sees many paths in the visions, many of which lead to failure, but some to victory, so I assume he chose this one out of the successful options. Probably because he gets to burn down the Forest and martyr his tainted sorcerous self for the faith. But still. Dramatic irony? Drawing parallels? Examination of one of the major players in the series? None of that?

[trobadora]

But still. Dramatic irony? Drawing parallels? Examination of one of the major players in the series? None of that?

*giggles*

[trobadora]

Whatever mark on his soul Damien has comes from hard choices he's made, whereas Andrys is just sitting there in someone else's armor.

Yesyesyes, that's exactly why I can never buy this here.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Also, I don't know that he dug the tunnel underground the entire way. I think it was just supposed to evacuate him on a path toward the mountains in a direction nobody would look for him. I haven't skipped ahead to check, but I'm pretty sure I remember that after a little while they were back under the night sky.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I skipped ahead a bit, and they have a little discussion that makes it sound that the one end of the tunnel is reachable from where they currently are. And it comes out underneath the Keep... there's also a little comment that Damien thinks they've been walking through it for a day or two. So we're talking what? 20, 30 miles at least? And the river crossing still seems to be there.

Sounds a bit like Tarrant got bored at one point and decided to tackle an engineering problem.

[rekishi]

considering Damien is an (albeit very tired) warrior, a fit person can pull 30 miles a day. best friend did 50 km hikes a day even before he became a soldier. and I reread the part about them in the tunnels for something a few weeks ago and he thinks something to that effect. even with Gerald human at the time with tender feet, well, he IS Gerald. so make it 50+ miles and it's still an enormous effort he must have made for I don't think that there are too many natural tunnel systems.

then again, he had 500 years to do it -_-

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

And the Brits and French thought the Eurotunnel was a big deal!

50 miles or so of tunnel. A slight overreaction - that first crusade against the Forest seems to have upset him slightly.

[rekishi]

is it still paranoia if it turns out to be true? or is that healthy suspicion?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Once in 500 years. I'm not sure that counts as anything more than plausible coincidence.

[rekishi]

in a world where Divining is possible?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

But surely, with a likeliness like that, you'd get far too many potential outcomes to really predict anything?

[rekishi]

well but as long as he saw that the possibility existed that might have been enough for Gerald to start digging ;)

[rekishi]

I don't have much time because I need to catch a tram but..

re Andrys:
is it possible that by assuming the image of the Hunter the fae act as...conductors and strengthen that impression in him?
it's a concept in biology, a cell will release signals which then bind to receptors of that same cell and strengthen the release of even more molecules and so on and so forth. it's called autocrine signaling pathway and I keep wondering if maybe this is something similar. That Andrys got himself into a loop and CAN'T escape now, at least not as long as the impression of the Hunter is so strong in the locale he is occupying.

if that wasn't all too clear I'll elaborate later or tomorrow, depending on when I get home tonight.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

So... once he triggered that first contact with the Hunter's essence, it grew and he had no real way to stop it anymore without outside help?

How would that end? Would that turn him into the Hunter in the end? There is a lot of Hunter essence floating around, especially once Gerald's compact is dissolved - at that point, Andrys probably is more of the Hunter than he himself.

[rekishi]

I don't know and I don't know. But then, we don't know much about Andrys after his meeting with Gerald in that room when Gerald sent Damien out. He might just as well have become much more of the Hunter than Andrys. Which might be another point for Narilka tying the knot, now that little Andrys has grown some spine ;)

It might be an interesting point to explore in a fic, a few years later Damien meets Andrys and look what happened.

I don't know. Maybe the Hunter's essence dissipated when Andrys left the Forest again, possibly with Gerald's head, or maybe even the fae can only work so much magic and Andrys is more like a simulacra than the real thing.

But all of that would speak for why he can act as the Hunter and is let through the Forest.

[rekishi]

actually you brought up an interesting point there:
how much of the Hunter persona is Gerald, how much is the compact and how much is the dark fae? Gerald has observed that the breaking of the compact might not have altered him so much but he only had that track from Shaitan to the Forest through the tunnels to observe. so how much?

God I wish there were some answers