CoS musings

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

A RL friend (and hopefully soon complete addict) and I were chatting about CoS just now, and there is one thing which puzzles both of us.

Exactly what was Tarrant hoping to achieve by "unlocking" the Patriarch's potential?

From what I can tell, he does it because having a sorcerer at the head of the Church is the only way to make sure it will survive Calesta's onslaught. But the Patriarch uses his newfound abilities solely for his crusade against the Forest. Was that Tarrant's intention? Or was he hoping that the Patriarch would join him in his fight against Calesta somehow? I'm wondering whether this whole attempt wasn't a serious miscalculation on Tarrant's part. Because when you think about it, helping the Patriarch leads to the crusade and therefore to Andrys being in that study at exactly the wrong moment...

So, intentional sacrifice of the Forest, simple coincidence, or did Tarrant completely outsmart himself?

Comments

[trobadora]

Just posting the relevant snippets from CoS for reference, because I've never entirely understood this part and am very curious to see what people think:

"I Divined our conflict," he said softly. Eyes shut, recalling the Working to his inner vision. "It's an imprecise art at best, as you know, and in this case all it conjured was chaos. I watched the corruption of the Church proceed from a thousand beginnings, and in none of them could I see any hope of change. I witnessed both our deaths a dozen times-yes, yours and mine-in a dozen different forums. I saw worlds in which Calesta triumphed, and such change was wrought that our human ancestors wouldn't have recognized Erna's children as their kin. All tangled together, Reverend Vryce: a skein of futures so enmeshed that even my skill couldn't pull the threads loose. But there were patterns even in that chaos, things which recurred time and time again." He looked at Damien. "The interference of the Unnamed was one. I had assumed it would strike at me directly, in vengeance for my many transgressions, but who can know what passes for vengeance in a mind that knows no permanence? And more than once I saw a sorcerer at the head of the Church, a man whose power was equal to my own, who might lead that body down the one safe path among millions. But what sense does that make? Even if such a man existed, the Church would cast him out." He shook his head tightly, frustrated. "Too many futures, Vryce, and nearly all of them lead to failure. I can't make out anything useful."

[...]

"What I saw," he said slowly, "was Calesta subverting a powerful man. I saw great vision and great stubbornness, that might be harnessed for a thousand different purposes. I saw a man destroying himself, unable to face his own potential... and that would make sense, if it is who you suggest. But I also saw this: in any future where the Church stood the least chance of survival, this man's actions were pivotal." He looked up sharply at Damien. "Pivotal, Vryce. In its literal sense. The man I saw could save the Church, but he could also destroy it."

"Can you tell where those paths diverge?" he demanded. "What's the catalyst? We can go after that."

Tarrant's eyes were unfocused as he tried to remember what he'd Seen. At last he shook his head, clearly frustrated. "It was all too tangled to make out clearly. He's not even aware of his own power yet; how can ] read a future that depends upon such awareness?"

"What if he were?" he pressed. "What if he accepted it?"

The Hunter's gaze fixed on him: diamondine, piercing. "You mean, what if he became a sorcerer in truth? Then he must face the condemnation of the Church as few men have known it... perhaps even the condemnation of his own soul. Would you wish that kind of torment on any man?"

Knowing the question for what it was, he met the Hunter's gaze head-on. "No," he said quietly. "I wouldn't wish that on any man."

The Hunter turned away from him. Sensing that he needed the moment of privacy, Damien upended his bottle of ale once more. There was still nothing in it. "He must know the truth, then," Tarrant said at last. "Or all our efforts are doomed to failure."

[kusan-38.livejournal.com]

The details aren't that fresh in my memory, but by these passages it sounds to me like Tarrant does not consider the forest's fate at all. He just keeps seeing the correlation between the Patriarch's realization and the survival of the church. Maybe he was so desperate that he actually *overlooked* certain things (Tarrant overlook something? ...)...but the Patriarch going after the forest IS a huge, glaring possibility, so I doubt that. Perhaps he knew what would happen to the forest and was actually willing to sacrifice it. Maybe, just maybe, he also wanted to awaken the patriarch for personal reasons. Being a sorcerer ruined Tarrant's former life, especially as it related to the church. If I were him, I would want to see what would happen to someone else in that position. Do you think that degree of selfishness is beyond him, or not?
(You know, I should probably re-read the books and refresh my memory before I theorize, lol).

[trobadora]

I think you're probably right that Tarrant would have enjoyed giving the church a taste of its own medicine, as it were - forcing the Patriarch to realise he himself is the very thing he has been opposed to would seem like poetic justice to him. I do believe that played a part in his final decision to approach the Patriarch himself. However, what I don't understand is where Gerald's final conclusion is coming from:

"He must know the truth, then," Tarrant said at last. "Or all our efforts are doomed to failure."

How does that follow from what's been said before? I just don't see it - it seems like a complete non sequitur to me. I assume I'm missing something there... *g*

[alice_montrose]

How does that follow from what's been said before? I just don't see it - it seems like a complete non sequitur to me. I assume I'm missing something there... *g*?

*points at own comment below*
Maybe their own chances of success were greater if the Patriarch made use of his Adeptitude. Remember, it may be all mangled futures, but Gerald would choose the path which is likely to give him greater chances of winning.

However, yeah, I don't doubt he took at least some perverse pleasure in giving the Patriarch a dose of the Church's own medicine... just so the man understands what it must have been like for Gerald. *nod nod*

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Maybe he was so desperate that he actually *overlooked* certain things (Tarrant overlook something? ...)

That's what makes me wonder about it all... it's just not like him.

And interesting point about that little bit of personal revenge. It's an experiment to see whether the Church has changed at all on this issue, at the very least. And who knows, maybe he even spent just a moment taking into account that the Patriarch rejected Damien for Working and gave him a taste of his own medicine. It wouldn't surprise me, considering how possessive Tarrant can be about what he considers his (and Damien is his priest/chief annoyer/co-fighter by that time...)

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

I think the Forest, even if he saw what would happen to it, didn't matter compared to the consequences if he'd left the Patriarch alone. In his mind, it sounds as though it's only a question of who'd get to him first: Tarrant and Damien, or Calesta. Either way, the Forest would go up in flames, and if Calesta was left to mess with the Patriarch, then the rest of the world would follow.

And after all, that's where Tarrant keeps all his stuff.

[alice_montrose]

*points at quotes* trobadora saved me the pain to copy-paste myself.

But I think this quote pretty much talks for itself:
"And more than once I saw a sorcerer at the head of the Church, a man whose power was equal to my own, who might lead that body down the one safe path among millions."

So the way I see it, by this point Gerals was not certain of what the future would be like, but he was determined to stop Calesta or at least die after causing as much thwarting to the Iezu's plans as he could. And even if this causes a conflict of interests - he must have known the Patriarch might lead a crusade against the Forest - stopping Calesta is what matters. So rather than miscalculation, it was probably a deliberate attempt to increase his chances of winning. I don't really think he cares about what happens to the Forest at this point, not when he doesn't even know if he will make it out of the whole mess alive (which is more important than a puny Forest he can always spend centuries recreating if he survives).

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

But how does it increase his chances of winning? The Patriarch didn't do anything to move against Calesta in any way - rather, he moved against Gerald and caused a distraction and potential loss of power. The Forest was still Gerald's, at this point, and he didn't seem to expect Amoril's betrayal. It's also before his little trip to Hell, so the time pressure doesn't factor just yet.

So the way it looks to me, he sacrificed his personal power base for no good reason, since it didn't really make Calesta's life any more difficult. It gets the Church out of the immediate target range, but it still means that Calesta can happily continue his corruption from the inside.

[alice_montrose]

(blah, annoying LJ cutting half my reply! *glare*)

Of course it made Calesta's life more difficult. Or was suposed to, anyway. Calesta's goal was to destroy or pervert the Church, remember? by giving teh Patriarch the means to achieve something glorious 9like destroying the Forest) he may have sacrificed his power base, but he at the cost of saving the Church. Which is, after all, his most prized creation.

And the Patriarch being the Patriarch, he would have made sure to keep corruption away from his people. The man is after all very strict in his interpretation of the canons, and he has experience at handling crisis situations. Plus, if you remember, Calesta's main focus remained on Gerald (Andrys feels quite acutely the lack of the Iezu's presence during the campaign). Even he couldn't be in two places at once, after all.

Plus I'm sure Gerald had some sort of hidden agenda no one knows about. He always does. But it being hidden, we have no idea what it is exactly.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Destroy the Church plus destroy that pesky adept who keeps interfering with his plans. ;-)

It feels a bit like by supporting the Patriarch, Gerald might have won a battle but ultimately lost the war, if things hadn't turned out the way they did. At this time the whole Mount Shaitan trip wasn't a factor yet, so it makes me wonder just what the plan was. Gerald would have taken on Calesta, that is for sure. But giving up his power source to save the Church... pride, once again, and I think this time it would have cost him dearly. I wonder whether he'd have been desperate enough to sacrifice himself if the whole trip to Hell hadn't happened afterwards.

And as for Calesta focusing on Gerald... the whole thing would make much more sense to me if Calesta had focused on the crusade instead so Gerald's personal actions wouldn't be closely watched. Could Gerald have been hoping for that, and it just didn't turn out that way?

Isn't there a way to find out the secret plans in books that never come into play because some plot twist prevents them? *sigh*

[alice_montrose]

Ah yes, that pesky adept who refuses to let Calesta pervert the Church and has stopped him from doing so in the East. That Divining Gerald shared with Damien and Toshida must have irritated Calesta to no end!

I ahve the feeling that, in CoS, Gerald doesn;t seem to be on top of things as much as he would like to. not knowing what teh unnamed has planned for him, all he can do is make what choice seems best at teh moment and see what happens, I guess.

After Damien brings him back from hell, he knows what general course of action to take - namely, find a way to destroy Calesta in the time he has left before his compact is dissolved. But before that point, he probably just makes what choices seem logical to him in order to succeed... because he doesn't know what the Unnamed will do and how that will affect him and their mission.

I also think Damien is a wild card as well. Gerald didn't really believe Damien would get him out of Hell, remember? So maybe Gerald made whatever arrangements he thought necessary in order to give the Church a surviving chance before he was unable to do so anymore.

Isn't there a way to find out the secret plans in books that never come into play because some plot twist prevents them? *sigh*

Not that I know of, sorry. Unless they come up in conversation, inner monologue or the character's thoughts.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

That Divining Gerald shared with Damien and Toshida must have irritated Calesta to no end!

Yes, giving away all his pretty and elegant plans so he suddenly has to act rashly. I guess that this was when Gerald definitely earned the title of Calesta's personal enemy.

So you think Gerald had no doubts that the Unnamed would dissolve his compact? In light of that, it would make sense for him to strengthen the Church as much as he could, without caring what happens to his own assets.

And really, by this time he should have known better than to think Damien would just leave him behind somewhere...

[alice_montrose]

Gerald had no doubt that teh unnamed would interfere. It was a constant reoccurence in teh Divining, as well as the powerful Adept. Having betrayed the compact, it was obvious the Unnamed would do something like take Gerald out of circulation (for a while or for good). At least it was obvious to me. Therefore, if Gerald could not control one constant, he probably decided to influence things in favour of the other constant - which meant the Patriarch had to be able to use his connection with the fae.

Gerald is not the type of man to trust easily. I don't think he realized how far Damien'd devotion (to their cause, of course, so no minds in the gutter please! *giggles*) went.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

This makes sense... so he wasn't certain he would be able to fight the battle himself, therefore he tried to make sure someone else could protect his precious projects.

You know my mind - do you honestly expect it not to take a nosedive into the gutter at such a comment? But really, by this time Gerald should have been aware that Damien doesn't abandon his allies. Damien came after him already in BSR, and he didn't even remotely like him at that time...

[alice_montrose]

What Gerald gives the Patriarch the knowledge necessary to save the Church - what the Patriarch does with that knowledge is entirely up to him. But he'd be able to see past Calesta's illusions, and no longer be fooled by the dreams Calesta was sending him. To be able to tell if people were true to the Church or controlled by a demon. And I also think that Gerald knew the Patriarch had enough faith and integrity and adhered to the cannons of the Church strictly enough to make the right choices. (The man is supposed to be his equal, after all, even if Gerald has considerably more experience.)

I expect your mind to be as pure as that of a child raised in a convent. Really, I do. =^_^=

Yes, but Damien also promised to come after him at the end of BSR. What happened in WTNF should have made him reconsider, but as I said - Gerald doesn't trust people easily. Why would Damien go to Hell just to save the fallen Prophet, when he could celebrate being free of his pesky undead sorcerer?

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

So he could have predicted the Patriarch's actions because he could be reasonably sure that the man would stick to the rules?

Still, check the actual confrontation of the two. I had a look at it because kusan_38 mentioned it, and that definitely didn't go according to Gerald's plans. The Patriarch might have been more integer than even Gerald expected.

Of course. And a very interesting convent it was. ;-)

Same argument as Damien uses with the Unnamed - he needs Gerald to fight Calesta. And he's put far too much effort into him by that point to just let him go and hide in Hell. Gerald has already turned into his pet project by that time. But I guess that from Gerald's POV, that might have been a bit tricky to accept...

[alice_montrose]

Heh, indeed. And that proves my point - the Patriarch is bound to stick to Church rules in spite of (quite strong) temptation.

*sniggers* I bet it was!

I just think Gerald doesn't believe anyone would give up everything just to save him. Which goes to prove his point of Damien being entirely too stubborn and too altruistic for his own good.

[winter]

To butt in, I think that while Gerald might have thought either way on Damien's will to go after him (and Karril's willingness to help was also a variable - Gerald doesn't put much trust in his friends as a rule), what he didn't expect was that Damien would be hard-headed enough to argue even the Unnamed into a stand-still :>

[alice_montrose]

Indeed. Damien's stubbornness is both a pain in Gerald's ass and God-sent, I believe. So let's all bless Damien's stubbornness, shall we?!

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Argues with the Unnamed, but chickens out when it comes to facing out Andrys. *growls*

That Damien would follow him into Hell and bargain with the devil was perhaps a bit difficult to expect. Then again, by that time Gerald should have known that Damien would be stubborn enough to not let him get away that easily.

[winter]

*eyedart* About the only excuse I've been able to find for it so far would be "tired and sleepy and trusting Gerald not to make too much of a mess of things"

I think that what Gerald didn't expect was that Damien would bargain with the devil and win.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Probably the last time Damien will ever trust him to get something done by himself.

Well, Damien has bargained (or at least argued) with him and won...

[winter]

Up to and including ordering dinner, I think.

Then again, Gerald didn't expect that either. It just sort of happens ;)

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Well, even I wouldn't trust him with ordering dinner. He hasn't eaten for 900 years, who knows what his tastes are like.

*grin* He just needs to be kept on his toes, and Damien does a wonderful job at that.

[winter]

Am currently re-re-re-writing a scene from the first-time fic where Damien finds out Gerald's not been eating properly and brings him dinner. I still haven't decided on exactly what he should bring.

Damien's certainly a good reminder to Gerald that the latter is not, in fact, an unstoppable force :>

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Gerald not eating properly... now why am I not surprised that something as mundane as nourishment might not warrant much of his attention...

And good point. ;-)

[kusan-38.livejournal.com]

You know, it always pissed me off to no end that Damien didn't DO something in the confrontation with Andrys. After all that infuriating but dependable bull-headed-ness, he just...lets it happen.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

*sigh* Join the club... I don't think I've met anyone yet who likes the outcome of that particular confrontation.

Damien really picked a lousy moment to become obedient.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Gerald is probably as tempting as it possibly gets... The Patriarch is steadfast where his faith is concerned. And stubborn as hell. I wonder whether this is actually a requirement for anyone in Church service.

He might just be taking himself as a role model. He couldn't give up everything himself, so why expect it of others? Damien must be terribly confusing at times. So annoyingly unpredictable.

[winter]

I've only read the books once, but the impression I got was that the most important thing for Gerald was to stop Calesta. If he didn't unlock the Patriarch's potential, there was the danger that Calesta's plans would come to fruition that way. Also, if one way or another he was already planning his own sacrifice, the Forest would no longer matter.

And then there's Amoril - I can't recall exact citations, but I think that with the bond Gerald must have been at least partially aware of the betrayal. Maybe he just thought that way he could a, remove the Patriarch's attention from himself, and b, give Amoril hell by proxy?

I think Narilka, and to a lesser extent Andrys, were the wild agents that neither Gerald nor Calesta foresaw. Then again, I wouldn't put it past Gerald to seize the opportunity to put the Hunter completely to rest, so that he could get on with his new life unencumbered by his old sins (but that's part of a whole another rant).

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

I agree that Gerald's ultimate goal was to stop Calesta. But at the time he decides the Patriarch needs to know about his abilities, neither Amoril's betrayal nor the trip to Hell (and subsequent knowledge that a month is all that's left) have happened yet.

If the timing were different, it would all be much plainer. But the way it is, it just seems a bit too desperate a move. It's rash, without really considering the consequences, and that's just not Gerald. Or I'm missing something essential...

So you assume getting rid of the Hunter also means shaking off the sins committed by him?

[kusan-38.livejournal.com]

You know, with the threat of the nameless hanging over his head from the end of the second book, maybe Tarrant was not as concerned for himself as usual. He hadn't been to hell yet, but maybe he believed he was headed there. Somewhat unrelated, I think it's important to note that Tarrant knew awakening the patriarch was a key factor in beating Calesta, but did not know WHY. It may be that simple--he only knew that not telling the patriarch the truth meant his cause would fail. In the passages trobadora posted, Friedman made the reasons extremely nebulous...and I really wish I had my books here so I could read the part where Tarrant actually confronts the patriarch (is anything revealed there?), but I'm at school and they're at home... Damn it, why did I leave them there?!

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

It may be that simple--he only knew that not telling the patriarch the truth meant his cause would fail.

That really could be it... if he was convinced, at the same time, that he wouldn't be able to escape hell and therefore wouldn't be able to fight the battle to the end himself.

In the confrontation with the Patriarch, Tarrant mainly tries to convince him that they are fighting the same enemy and that therefore they are allies. It's as though Tarrant expected the Patriarch to take up his offer for knowledge so they could fight together... who knows, maybe the original plan was an alliance of Forest and Church against Calesta?

(If you'd like, I can email you the books. I have e-copies for backup, since they're much easier when you need to search for specific fact.)

[kusan-38.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the offer, but that's alright. In my overdramatic lamentations I forgot that I will be home for spring break in under a week. But I really do need to re-read them soon. Other fantasy series I've tried lately have mostly been dull by comparison.

[winter]

I do need to re-read that ~_~ But since he's acting on his Divining, perhaps he has some subconscious knowledge of both?

Also, I agree with kusan_38 in that personal experiences played a role - Gerald never wanted to see the Church abandon the possibility of controlled fae-working altogether, which was probably logical, since it represents the only available means of constructing permanent habitations without having them fall down due to earthquakes every few months or so. Possibly his plan entailed the Patriarchy embracing Working to the same extent the Matriarchy does?

As for abandoning the Hunter, I don't think it gets rid of the sins in a metaphysical sense as much as let new!Gerald act freely, without being associated with the Forest. He doesn't have to dodge vengeance anymore, or risk being recognised by someone like Narilka. I wouldn't put it past Gerald to think that it allows him a clean slate, though, especially with Damien no longer available to set him straight there...

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Yes, perhaps in the Divinings it was a matter of seeing that he himself wasn't playing a big role in the battle itself. That would probably have been indication enough, along with the presence of the Unnamed.

It would have been a way to force the Patriarchy to accept Working when it is done for a good reason. A bomb-drop implementation, but the benefits would have been immediately visible in this particular situation. So it would make sense...

He doesn't have to dodge vengeance anymore, or risk being recognised by someone like Narilka.

Hm, yes... since everybody saw that the Hunter was very plainly dead, nobody would have reason to suspect a nice, harmless young man.

[winter]

I see the Divining as more impressions and images than precise predictions. And I think that either way, Gerald knew he was living on borrowed time since he shared the Divining with the Patriarch of Mercia.

Abandoning the Neocount and Hunter parts of himself is also a sacrifice of his pride in both - I think it might go a good way towards at least partial redemption. It's certainly an exercise in humility, which might be why he chooses a relatively harmless-looking new form.

[jimthefly.livejournal.com]

My take on the situation might be a little off-the-wall, but that's my usual style of thinking...

The Church and Andrys are actually parallels, in a way.

Remember that Gerald didn't kill ALL his children. He left one, because for all his fear of death, he still desired to have that one lifeline, that one continuance of him that remained. If he killed all his children, then the being of Gerald Tarrant would have passed from life to undeath, while the physical and biological essence of him would have passed from life to death. And even as time goes on and Tarrants seek to reclaim the title of Neocount of Merentha, he never kills ALL of his descendants. He leaves one.

He is a proud creature. You can see this by the way that he makes sure to use the fae to even keep his clothing just so, by the way he focuses his attentions on the Forest, and even by the way he hunts down the women in the Forest. But with that pride comes fear. A fear that he would never blatantly admit, but one that does exist. He is afraid to be the last of his line. He is afraid to know that if he were to lose his life somehow, the Tarrant name would vanish. And it's made clear that Gerald will allow nothing to happen to Andrys as long as he's alive. He is the Patriarch of the Tarrant family and will do whatever he must to insure its survival.

The same holds true for his OTHER child: The Church.

For all the evils that Gerald MUST perform to sustain himself, he still is the Prophet who created the foundation of the Church. His very nature sets him at odds with it, but he will not cause it to perish either.

And it is because of this fatherly instinct that Gerald unlocks the power within the Patriarch. Because in this way, he can better ensure that his spiritual child survives the onslaught that awaits it.

If he doesn't do this, then there is a possibility that, within a short period of time, all that he has done, all that he has left - physically, spiritually, scientifically - will be eradicated and the remnants subject to Calesta's whims.

I'm sure he DID see that the Forest would probably be attacked. He also entered the confrontation with Calesta with the express intent of dying himself. This would seem to guarantee the end of Gerald Tarrant, the Hunter.

Without his being to keep the forest in line, and without his ability to oversee Andrys's life, he could no longer guarantee the safety of his last remaining relative. And if he had seen this also occuring, then he very well may have figured that Andrys quite possibly might die, causing the end of Gerald Tarrant, the Patriarch.

But with the power of the fae behind the Patriarch CONSCIOUSLY now, the Church would stand the best chance of surviving. And with the confluence of the various streams of fate, Gerald very well may have decided that at least he would be able to survive methaphorically... as Gerald Tarrant, the Prophet.

Plus, if he DID foretell the attack on the Forest, he might have known that if he were to die, the best chance for escaping could be the power of an adept to keep SOME semblance of order in the Forest to facilitate an escape. And if Andrys would be with them, then this unlocking of the power could be used to serve a dual purpose: Allowing his progeny and his prophecy to BOTH survive.

Okay, I think I've rambled enough... and probably contradicted myself some. my mind feel slike it shut down partway through, so if I started getting all over the place, I apologize. But hopefully I was able to make clear my personal hypothesis that much of what Gerald does he does for one reason: Pride.

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

But hopefully I was able to make clear my personal hypothesis that much of what Gerald does he does for one reason: Pride.

*nod* You definitely made that clear, and from an absolutely fascinating angle. Some agreement and some disagreement here... I don't quite share your view on the fatherly instincts, but the pride certainly is his central motivation for a lot of his actions. Pride, sometimes turning into sheer arrogance.

[winter]

...sometimes? XD

[carmentalis.livejournal.com]

Ok, in nine cases out of ten. :-P

[kusan-38.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed the observation of the church as Tarrant's "other child." I really did.